diff --git a/.github/FUNDING.yml b/.github/FUNDING.yml
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..650984e
--- /dev/null
+++ b/.github/FUNDING.yml
@@ -0,0 +1,13 @@
+github: [0xMassi]
+patreon:
+open_collective:
+ko_fi:
+tidelift:
+community_bridge:
+liberapay:
+issuehunt:
+lfx_crowdfunding:
+polar:
+buy_me_a_coffee:
+thanks_dev:
+custom:
diff --git a/.github/workflows/ci.yml b/.github/workflows/ci.yml
index 0b14bcc..bf03cee 100644
--- a/.github/workflows/ci.yml
+++ b/.github/workflows/ci.yml
@@ -14,7 +14,7 @@ jobs:
     name: Test
     runs-on: ubuntu-latest
     steps:
-      - uses: actions/checkout@v4
+      - uses: actions/checkout@v5
       - uses: dtolnay/rust-toolchain@stable
       - uses: Swatinem/rust-cache@v2
       - run: cargo test --workspace
@@ -23,7 +23,7 @@ jobs:
     name: Lint
     runs-on: ubuntu-latest
     steps:
-      - uses: actions/checkout@v4
+      - uses: actions/checkout@v5
       - uses: dtolnay/rust-toolchain@stable
         with:
           components: clippy, rustfmt
@@ -31,11 +31,26 @@ jobs:
       - run: cargo fmt --check --all
       - run: cargo clippy --all -- -D warnings
 
+  wasm:
+    name: WASM
+    runs-on: ubuntu-latest
+    steps:
+      - uses: actions/checkout@v5
+      - uses: dtolnay/rust-toolchain@stable
+        with:
+          targets: wasm32-unknown-unknown
+      - uses: Swatinem/rust-cache@v2
+      # webclaw-core must stay WASM-safe (zero network deps, no threads).
+      # Check both with and without default features so the quickjs gate
+      # can't regress.
+      - run: cargo check --target wasm32-unknown-unknown -p webclaw-core
+      - run: cargo check --target wasm32-unknown-unknown -p webclaw-core --no-default-features
+
   docs:
     name: Docs
     runs-on: ubuntu-latest
     steps:
-      - uses: actions/checkout@v4
+      - uses: actions/checkout@v5
       - uses: dtolnay/rust-toolchain@stable
       - uses: Swatinem/rust-cache@v2
       - run: cargo doc --no-deps --workspace
diff --git a/.github/workflows/deps.yml b/.github/workflows/deps.yml
index 29e851b..7d455cc 100644
--- a/.github/workflows/deps.yml
+++ b/.github/workflows/deps.yml
@@ -14,7 +14,7 @@ jobs:
     name: Update webclaw-tls dependencies
     runs-on: ubuntu-latest
     steps:
-      - uses: actions/checkout@v4
+      - uses: actions/checkout@v5
         with:
           token: ${{ secrets.SYNC_PAT }}
 
diff --git a/.github/workflows/release.yml b/.github/workflows/release.yml
index 4c4c241..7ad94a3 100644
--- a/.github/workflows/release.yml
+++ b/.github/workflows/release.yml
@@ -5,14 +5,15 @@ on:
     tags: ["v*"]
 
 permissions:
-  contents: write
-  packages: write
+  contents: read
 
 env:
   CARGO_TERM_COLOR: always
 
 jobs:
   build:
+    permissions:
+      contents: read
     name: Build ${{ matrix.target }}
     runs-on: ${{ matrix.os }}
     strategy:
@@ -27,9 +28,11 @@ jobs:
             os: ubuntu-latest
           - target: aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu
             os: ubuntu-latest
+          - target: x86_64-pc-windows-msvc
+            os: windows-latest
 
     steps:
-      - uses: actions/checkout@v4
+      - uses: actions/checkout@v5
 
       - uses: dtolnay/rust-toolchain@stable
         with:
@@ -57,6 +60,12 @@ jobs:
         if: matrix.target != 'aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu' && runner.os == 'Linux'
         run: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install -y cmake
 
+      - name: Install NASM (Windows)
+        if: runner.os == 'Windows'
+        run: |
+          choco install nasm -y
+          echo "C:\Program Files\NASM" | Out-File -FilePath $env:GITHUB_PATH -Encoding utf8 -Append
+
       - name: Build
         run: cargo build --release --target ${{ matrix.target }}
 
@@ -71,15 +80,25 @@ jobs:
           # don't repeat that mistake. If a future binary gets renamed or
           # removed, this step should scream, not quietly publish an
           # incomplete release.
-          cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw "$staging/"
-          cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw-mcp "$staging/"
-          cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw-server "$staging/"
-          cp README.md LICENSE "$staging/"
-          tar czf "$staging.tar.gz" "$staging"
-          echo "ASSET=$staging.tar.gz" >> $GITHUB_ENV
+
+          if [[ "${{ matrix.os }}" == "windows-latest" ]]; then
+            cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw.exe "$staging/"
+            cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw-mcp.exe "$staging/"
+            cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw-server.exe "$staging/"
+            cp README.md LICENSE "$staging/"
+            7z a -tzip "$staging.zip" "$staging"
+            echo "ASSET=$staging.zip" >> $GITHUB_ENV
+          else
+            cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw "$staging/"
+            cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw-mcp "$staging/"
+            cp target/${{ matrix.target }}/release/webclaw-server "$staging/"
+            cp README.md LICENSE "$staging/"
+            tar czf "$staging.tar.gz" "$staging"
+            echo "ASSET=$staging.tar.gz" >> $GITHUB_ENV
+          fi
 
       - name: Upload artifact
-        uses: actions/upload-artifact@v4
+        uses: actions/upload-artifact@v5
         with:
           name: ${{ matrix.target }}
           path: ${{ env.ASSET }}
@@ -88,10 +107,10 @@ jobs:
     name: Release
     needs: build
     runs-on: ubuntu-latest
+    permissions:
+      contents: write
     steps:
-      - uses: actions/checkout@v4
-
-      - uses: actions/download-artifact@v4
+      - uses: actions/download-artifact@v5
         with:
           path: artifacts
 
@@ -99,23 +118,31 @@ jobs:
         run: |
           cd artifacts
           find . -name '*.tar.gz' -exec mv {} . \;
-          sha256sum *.tar.gz > SHA256SUMS
+          find . -name '*.zip' -exec mv {} . \;
+          sha256sum *.tar.gz *.zip > SHA256SUMS 2>/dev/null || sha256sum * > SHA256SUMS
           cat SHA256SUMS
 
       - name: Create GitHub Release
-        uses: softprops/action-gh-release@v2
-        with:
-          generate_release_notes: true
-          files: |
-            artifacts/*.tar.gz
-            artifacts/SHA256SUMS
+        env:
+          GITHUB_TOKEN: ${{ secrets.GITHUB_TOKEN }}
+        run: |
+          tag="${GITHUB_REF#refs/tags/}"
+          gh release create "$tag" \
+            artifacts/*.tar.gz \
+            artifacts/*.zip \
+            artifacts/SHA256SUMS \
+            --repo "$GITHUB_REPOSITORY" \
+            --generate-notes
 
   docker:
     name: Docker
     needs: release
     runs-on: ubuntu-latest
+    permissions:
+      contents: read
+      packages: write
     steps:
-      - uses: actions/checkout@v4
+      - uses: actions/checkout@v5
 
       - uses: docker/setup-qemu-action@v3
         with:
@@ -173,6 +200,8 @@ jobs:
     name: Update Homebrew
     needs: [release, docker]
     runs-on: ubuntu-latest
+    permissions:
+      contents: read
     steps:
       - name: Compute all checksums and update formula
         env:
@@ -181,7 +210,7 @@ jobs:
           tag="${GITHUB_REF#refs/tags/}"
           base="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/releases/download/${tag}"
 
-          # Download all 4 tarballs and compute SHAs
+          # Download all tarballs (Linux + macOS) and compute SHAs
           for target in aarch64-apple-darwin x86_64-apple-darwin aarch64-unknown-linux-gnu x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu; do
             curl -sSL "${base}/webclaw-${tag}-${target}.tar.gz" -o "${target}.tar.gz"
           done
diff --git a/CHANGELOG.md b/CHANGELOG.md
index 94b9ddb..856cc11 100644
--- a/CHANGELOG.md
+++ b/CHANGELOG.md
@@ -3,6 +3,99 @@
 All notable changes to webclaw are documented here.
 Format follows [Keep a Changelog](https://keepachangelog.com/).
 
+## [0.6.5] — 2026-06-04
+
+### Changed
+- Reddit threads extract reliably again. The old anonymous JSON endpoint is no longer available, so webclaw now reads old.reddit.com directly without an API key or JavaScript. You get the post plus the full nested comment tree, with authors, scores, timestamps, and reply nesting preserved. Comment text keeps its links and code blocks, hidden scores are reported as unknown rather than zero, and deleted comments stay in place so their replies aren't lost.
+
+---
+
+## [0.6.4] — 2026-05-19
+
+### Added
+- API surface discovery: a new module extracts the API endpoints embedded in a page's inline scripts and linked JavaScript bundles. It surfaces relative REST paths, absolute URLs, GraphQL operations, and WebSocket endpoints that a sitemap alone cannot reveal. A built-in noise filter drops schema.org and json-schema.org references, bare framework paths, and other non-API matches so the result stays focused on the real surface.
+
+---
+
+## [0.6.3] — 2026-05-19
+
+### Fixed
+- Hardened resource and path-safety limits across the CLI, MCP server, and self-hosted API: oversized or highly compressed responses are capped while streaming, deeply nested page data can no longer exhaust memory, output filenames stay inside the chosen directory, webhook URLs are validated like every other fetch, and multibyte search queries no longer crash slug generation.
+
+---
+
+## [0.6.2] — 2026-05-18
+
+### Fixed
+- Cleaned up `--format llm` output on noisy news and documentation pages. Comment-count links, bare page-number paragraphs, pagination leftovers such as `0 Next`, and duplicated JSON-LD article bodies are now removed before they reach the LLM context.
+- The CLI now recognizes common cookie-consent redirects and prints a clearer warning when a page returns a consent wall instead of usable content.
+- The CLI keeps noisy parser warnings from real-world malformed HTML out of stderr by default. `WEBCLAW_LOG` still lets advanced users opt into deeper parser logs.
+
+Thanks to Nenad Oric (`@devnen`) for the report and patch work in PR #43.
+
+---
+
+## [0.6.1] — 2026-05-12
+
+### Fixed
+- Hardened URL safety across the CLI, MCP server, and self-hosted API paths so local and private network targets are rejected more consistently, including after DNS resolution and redirects.
+- Added a timeout around inline JavaScript data extraction so hostile pages cannot keep the extractor busy forever.
+- Tightened Amazon and eBay URL recognition so deceptive hosts are rejected while common international marketplaces still work.
+- Avoided unnecessary decoding work on large responses during bot-challenge detection.
+- Reduced release workflow token permissions so build jobs run with narrower GitHub access.
+
+---
+
+## [0.6.0] — 2026-05-10
+
+### Fixed
+- Improved `--format llm` output quality on modern news and documentation pages. Framework hydration blobs and low-value page chrome structured-data records are now filtered out before they can flood the LLM context, while content-bearing Schema.org records are preserved. Thanks and congrats to Nenad Oric (`@devnen`) for the contribution in PR #37.
+- Fixed element-to-text spacing so adjacent inline nodes no longer smash words together, while punctuation stays attached on real pages such as docs, forums, and reference sites.
+- Removed common screen-reader-only link chrome such as "opens new tab" from LLM body text and link labels without stripping ordinary prose that happens to mention external links.
+
+---
+
+## [0.5.9] — 2026-05-06
+
+### Fixed
+- LLM providers now support `ANTHROPIC_BASE_URL` for Anthropic-compatible proxies, plus an `OPENAI_RESPONSE_FORMAT_TYPE` override for OpenAI-compatible backends such as LM Studio. Thanks to Toti (`@Toti330`) for the report.
+
+---
+
+## [0.5.8] — 2026-05-04
+
+### Added
+- GitHub Releases now include a Windows x86_64 `.zip` with `webclaw.exe`, `webclaw-mcp.exe`, and `webclaw-server.exe`. Thanks to Suryansh Mishra (`@notrealsuryansh`) for the contribution.
+
+### Fixed
+- Improved brand extraction results for modern sites with large app shells. Brand colors, fonts, and logos are now less likely to be polluted by login widgets, customer-logo grids, icon fonts, or generated CSS noise.
+
+### Docs
+- Refreshed the README badges with a cleaner shieldcn style. Thanks to Justin Levine (`@jal-co`) for the contribution, and shout-out to his open-source [shieldcn](https://github.com/jal-co/shieldcn) project.
+
+---
+
+## [0.5.7] — 2026-04-30
+
+### Security
+- Hardened server-side URL fetching against SSRF by rejecting private/internal IP ranges and unsafe redirect targets across CLI, MCP, and the self-hosted REST server. Thanks to KairoKid / dodge1218 (vonbrubeck@gmail.com) for the responsible report.
+
+### Docs
+- README header now uses an `<h1>webclaw</h1>` instead of an `<h3>` slogan. The repo had no heading-level brand anchor before, only a banner image, so search engines indexing the README were missing the canonical brand signal. The new heading is what GitHub renders as the title of the page and what Google co-ranks with webclaw.io.
+
+---
+
+## [0.5.6] — 2026-04-23
+
+### Added
+- `FetchClient::fetch_smart(url)` applies per-site rescue logic and returns the same `FetchResult` shape as `fetch()`. Reddit URLs route to the `.json` API with an identifiable bot `User-Agent`, and Akamai-style challenge pages trigger a homepage cookie warmup plus a retry. Makes `/v1/scrape` on Reddit populate markdown again.
+
+### Fixed
+- Regression introduced in 0.5.4 where the production server's `/v1/scrape` bypassed the Reddit `.json` shortcut and Akamai cookie warmup that `fetch_and_extract` had been providing. Both helpers now live in `fetch_smart` and every caller path picks them up.
+- Panic in the markdown converter (`markdown.rs:925`) on single-pipe `|` lines. A `[1..len-1]` slice on a 1-char input triggered `begin <= end`. Guarded.
+
+---
+
 ## [0.5.5] — 2026-04-23
 
 ### Added
diff --git a/CLAUDE.md b/CLAUDE.md
index c33d61f..b30bd84 100644
--- a/CLAUDE.md
+++ b/CLAUDE.md
@@ -38,6 +38,7 @@ Three binaries: `webclaw` (CLI), `webclaw-mcp` (MCP server), `webclaw-server` (R
 - `filter.rs` — CSS selector include/exclude filtering (ExtractionOptions)
 - `diff.rs` — Content change tracking engine (snapshot diffing)
 - `brand.rs` — Brand identity extraction from DOM structure and CSS
+- `youtube.rs` — `ytInitialPlayerResponse` parser, structured markdown for `youtube.com/watch` URLs (title, channel, views, published, duration, description). Produces the legacy markdown shape — for transcripts and a structured `YoutubeData` block see the production server's `youtube_transcript.rs` short-circuit (yt-dlp via proxy pool).
 
 ### Fetch Modules (`webclaw-fetch`)
 - `client.rs` — FetchClient with wreq BoringSSL TLS impersonation; implements the public `Fetcher` trait so callers (including server adapters) can swap in alternative implementations
diff --git a/CONTRIBUTING.md b/CONTRIBUTING.md
index 3358e48..b046212 100644
--- a/CONTRIBUTING.md
+++ b/CONTRIBUTING.md
@@ -91,18 +91,16 @@ Body is optional but encouraged for non-trivial changes.
 
 ```
 webclaw (this repo)
-├── crates/
-│   ├── webclaw-core/    # Pure extraction engine (HTML → markdown/json/text)
-│   ├── webclaw-fetch/   # HTTP client + crawler + sitemap + batch
-│   ├── webclaw-llm/     # LLM provider chain (Ollama → OpenAI → Anthropic)
-│   ├── webclaw-pdf/     # PDF text extraction
-│   ├── webclaw-cli/     # CLI binary
-│   └── webclaw-mcp/     # MCP server binary
-│
-└── [patch.crates-io]    # Points to webclaw-tls for TLS fingerprinting
+└── crates/
+    ├── webclaw-core/    # Pure extraction engine (HTML → markdown/json/text)
+    ├── webclaw-fetch/   # HTTP client (wreq/BoringSSL) + crawler + sitemap + batch
+    ├── webclaw-llm/     # LLM provider chain (Ollama → OpenAI → Anthropic)
+    ├── webclaw-pdf/     # PDF text extraction
+    ├── webclaw-cli/     # CLI binary
+    └── webclaw-mcp/     # MCP server binary
 ```
 
-TLS fingerprinting lives in a separate repo: [webclaw-tls](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw-tls). The `[patch.crates-io]` section in `Cargo.toml` overrides rustls, h2, hyper, hyper-util, and reqwest with our patched forks for browser-grade JA4 + HTTP/2 Akamai fingerprinting.
+TLS fingerprinting is handled in-process by [wreq](https://crates.io/crates/wreq) (BoringSSL), so `webclaw-fetch` impersonates real browser TLS directly. There are no `[patch.crates-io]` forks or external TLS dependencies.
 
 ## Crate Boundaries
 
@@ -111,7 +109,7 @@ Changes that cross crate boundaries need extra care:
 | Crate | Network? | Key constraint |
 |-------|----------|----------------|
 | webclaw-core | No | Zero network deps, WASM-safe |
-| webclaw-fetch | Yes (webclaw-http) | Uses [webclaw-tls](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw-tls) for TLS fingerprinting |
+| webclaw-fetch | Yes (wreq) | Browser TLS impersonation via wreq (BoringSSL); no patched deps |
 | webclaw-llm | Yes (reqwest) | Plain reqwest — LLM APIs don't need TLS fingerprinting |
 | webclaw-pdf | No | Minimal, wraps pdf-extract |
 | webclaw-cli | Yes | Depends on all above |
diff --git a/Cargo.lock b/Cargo.lock
index 30135cd..78e7e77 100644
--- a/Cargo.lock
+++ b/Cargo.lock
@@ -3219,7 +3219,7 @@ dependencies = [
 
 [[package]]
 name = "webclaw-cli"
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 dependencies = [
  "clap",
  "dotenvy",
@@ -3240,7 +3240,7 @@ dependencies = [
 
 [[package]]
 name = "webclaw-core"
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 dependencies = [
  "ego-tree",
  "once_cell",
@@ -3258,7 +3258,7 @@ dependencies = [
 
 [[package]]
 name = "webclaw-fetch"
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 dependencies = [
  "async-trait",
  "bytes",
@@ -3284,7 +3284,7 @@ dependencies = [
 
 [[package]]
 name = "webclaw-llm"
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 dependencies = [
  "async-trait",
  "reqwest",
@@ -3297,7 +3297,7 @@ dependencies = [
 
 [[package]]
 name = "webclaw-mcp"
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 dependencies = [
  "dirs",
  "dotenvy",
@@ -3317,7 +3317,7 @@ dependencies = [
 
 [[package]]
 name = "webclaw-pdf"
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 dependencies = [
  "pdf-extract",
  "thiserror",
@@ -3326,7 +3326,7 @@ dependencies = [
 
 [[package]]
 name = "webclaw-server"
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 dependencies = [
  "anyhow",
  "axum",
diff --git a/Cargo.toml b/Cargo.toml
index abd5816..124c620 100644
--- a/Cargo.toml
+++ b/Cargo.toml
@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@ resolver = "2"
 members = ["crates/*"]
 
 [workspace.package]
-version = "0.5.5"
+version = "0.6.5"
 edition = "2024"
 license = "AGPL-3.0"
 repository = "https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw"
@@ -21,4 +21,3 @@ tracing = "0.1"
 tracing-subscriber = { version = "0.3", features = ["env-filter"] }
 clap = { version = "4", features = ["derive", "env"] }
 dotenvy = "0.15"
-
diff --git a/Dockerfile b/Dockerfile
index 6f84e06..fefb39b 100644
--- a/Dockerfile
+++ b/Dockerfile
@@ -59,9 +59,9 @@ RUN touch crates/*/src/*.rs \
 # ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 FROM ubuntu:24.04
 
-RUN apt-get update && apt-get install -y --no-install-recommends \
-    ca-certificates \
-    && rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*
+# CA bundle from distroless (ships it, multi-arch, gcr.io) instead of
+# apt-installing from ports.ubuntu.com (unreachable for arm64 on CI runners).
+COPY --from=gcr.io/distroless/static-debian12 /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt
 
 # Copy all three binaries
 COPY --from=builder /build/target/release/webclaw /usr/local/bin/webclaw
@@ -73,11 +73,9 @@ COPY --from=builder /build/target/release/webclaw-server /usr/local/bin/webclaw-
 # as documentation; callers still need `-p 3000:3000` on `docker run`.
 EXPOSE 3000
 
-# Container default: bind all interfaces so `-p 3000:3000` works. The binary
-# itself defaults to 127.0.0.1 (safe for `cargo run` on a laptop); inside
-# Docker that would make the server unreachable, so we flip it here.
-# Override with -e WEBCLAW_HOST=127.0.0.1 if you front this with another
-# process in the same container.
+# Container default: bind all interfaces so `-p 3000:3000` works. Public
+# binding requires WEBCLAW_API_KEY; the binary refuses open-auth 0.0.0.0
+# unless WEBCLAW_ALLOW_OPEN_PUBLIC=1 is set explicitly for local testing.
 ENV WEBCLAW_HOST=0.0.0.0
 
 # Entrypoint shim: forwards webclaw args/URL to the binary, but exec's other
diff --git a/Dockerfile.ci b/Dockerfile.ci
index ccd8a33..7b62718 100644
--- a/Dockerfile.ci
+++ b/Dockerfile.ci
@@ -5,9 +5,10 @@ ARG BINARY_DIR=binaries
 
 FROM ubuntu:24.04
 
-RUN apt-get update && apt-get install -y --no-install-recommends \
-    ca-certificates \
-    && rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*
+# CA bundle copied from a reliable multi-arch image instead of apt-installing
+# from ports.ubuntu.com — Canonical's arm64 ports mirror is unreachable from
+# CI runners and breaks the multi-arch release build. No build-time network.
+COPY --from=gcr.io/distroless/static-debian12 /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt
 
 ARG BINARY_DIR
 COPY ${BINARY_DIR}/webclaw /usr/local/bin/webclaw
diff --git a/README.md b/README.md
index b752d46..1d0a5ac 100644
--- a/README.md
+++ b/README.md
@@ -1,70 +1,74 @@
 <p align="center">
   <a href="https://webclaw.io">
-    <img src=".github/banner.png" alt="webclaw" width="700" />
+    <img src=".github/banner.png" alt="webclaw" width="760" />
   </a>
 </p>
 
-<h3 align="center">
-  The fastest web scraper for AI agents.<br/>
-  <sub>67% fewer tokens. Sub-millisecond extraction. Zero browser overhead.</sub>
-</h3>
+<h1 align="center">webclaw</h1>
 
 <p align="center">
-  <a href="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/stargazers"><img src="https://img.shields.io/github/stars/0xMassi/webclaw?style=for-the-badge&logo=github&logoColor=white&label=Stars&color=181717" alt="Stars" /></a>
-  <a href="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/releases"><img src="https://img.shields.io/github/v/release/0xMassi/webclaw?style=for-the-badge&logo=rust&logoColor=white&label=Version&color=B7410E" alt="Version" /></a>
-  <a href="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/blob/main/LICENSE"><img src="https://img.shields.io/badge/License-AGPL--3.0-10B981?style=for-the-badge" alt="License" /></a>
-  <a href="https://www.npmjs.com/package/create-webclaw"><img src="https://img.shields.io/npm/dt/create-webclaw?style=for-the-badge&logo=npm&logoColor=white&label=Installs&color=CB3837" alt="npm installs" /></a>
+  <strong>Turn websites into clean markdown, JSON, and LLM-ready context.</strong><br/>
+  <sub>CLI, MCP server, REST API, and SDKs for AI agents and RAG pipelines.</sub>
 </p>
+
 <p align="center">
-  <a href="https://discord.gg/KDfd48EpnW"><img src="https://img.shields.io/badge/Discord-Join-5865F2?style=for-the-badge&logo=discord&logoColor=white" alt="Discord" /></a>
-  <a href="https://x.com/webclaw_io"><img src="https://img.shields.io/badge/Follow-@webclaw__io-000000?style=for-the-badge&logo=x&logoColor=white" alt="X / Twitter" /></a>
-  <a href="https://webclaw.io"><img src="https://img.shields.io/badge/Website-webclaw.io-0A0A0A?style=for-the-badge&logo=safari&logoColor=white" alt="Website" /></a>
-  <a href="https://webclaw.io/docs"><img src="https://img.shields.io/badge/Docs-Read-3B82F6?style=for-the-badge&logo=readthedocs&logoColor=white" alt="Docs" /></a>
+  <a href="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/stargazers"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/github/stars/0xMassi/webclaw.svg?variant=branded&logo=github" alt="Stars" /></a>
+  <a href="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/releases"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/github/tag/0xMassi/webclaw.svg?variant=branded&logo=rust" alt="Version" /></a>
+  <a href="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/blob/main/LICENSE"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/github/license/0xMassi/webclaw.svg?variant=branded" alt="License" /></a>
+  <a href="https://www.npmjs.com/package/create-webclaw"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/npm/dt/create-webclaw.svg?variant=branded" alt="npm installs" /></a>
+</p>
+
+<p align="center">
+  <a href="https://discord.gg/KDfd48EpnW"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/badge/Discord-Join.svg?variant=branded&logo=discord" alt="Discord" /></a>
+  <a href="https://x.com/webclaw_io"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/badge/Follow-@webclaw__io.svg?variant=branded&logo=x" alt="X / Twitter" /></a>
+  <a href="https://webclaw.io"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/badge/Hosted-webclaw.io.svg?variant=branded&logo=safari" alt="Hosted webclaw" /></a>
+  <a href="https://webclaw.io/docs"><img src="https://shieldcn.dev/badge/Docs-Read.svg?variant=branded&logo=readthedocs" alt="Docs" /></a>
+</p>
+
+<p align="center">
+  <img src="assets/demo.gif" alt="webclaw extracting clean markdown from a page" width="760" />
 </p>
 
 ---
 
-<p align="center">
-  <img src="assets/demo.gif" alt="Claude Code: web_fetch gets 403, webclaw extracts successfully" width="700" />
-  <br/>
-  <sub>Claude Code's built-in web_fetch → 403 Forbidden. webclaw → clean markdown.</sub>
-</p>
+Most web scraping tools give your agent one of two bad outputs:
 
----
+- a blocked page, login wall, or empty app shell
+- raw HTML full of nav, scripts, styling, ads, and duplicated boilerplate
 
-Your AI agent calls `fetch()` and gets a 403. Or 142KB of raw HTML that burns through your token budget. **webclaw fixes both.**
+[webclaw.io](https://webclaw.io) is the hosted web extraction API for webclaw. This repo contains the open-source CLI, MCP server, extraction engine, and self-hostable server.
 
-It extracts clean, structured content from any URL using Chrome-level TLS fingerprinting — no headless browser, no Selenium, no Puppeteer. Output is optimized for LLMs: **67% fewer tokens** than raw HTML, with metadata, links, and images preserved.
+webclaw turns a URL into clean content your tools can actually use.
 
-```
-                     Raw HTML                          webclaw
-┌──────────────────────────────────┐    ┌──────────────────────────────────┐
-│ <div class="ad-wrapper">         │    │ # Breaking: AI Breakthrough      │
-│ <nav class="global-nav">         │    │                                  │
-│ <script>window.__NEXT_DATA__     │    │ Researchers achieved 94%         │
-│ ={...8KB of JSON...}</script>    │    │ accuracy on cross-domain         │
-│ <div class="social-share">       │    │ reasoning benchmarks.            │
-│ <button>Tweet</button>           │    │                                  │
-│ <footer class="site-footer">     │    │ ## Key Findings                  │
-│ <!-- 142,847 characters -->      │    │ - 3x faster inference            │
-│                                  │    │ - Open-source weights            │
-│         4,820 tokens             │    │         1,590 tokens             │
-└──────────────────────────────────┘    └──────────────────────────────────┘
+```bash
+webclaw https://example.com --format markdown
 ```
 
+```md
+# Example Domain
+
+This domain is for use in illustrative examples in documents.
+
+You may use this domain in literature without prior coordination or asking for permission.
+```
+
+Use it from the terminal, wire it into Claude/Cursor through MCP, call the hosted API from your app, or self-host the OSS server.
+
 ---
 
-## Get Started (30 seconds)
+## Install
 
-### For AI agents (Claude, Cursor, Windsurf, VS Code)
+### Agent setup
+
+The fastest way to connect webclaw to Claude Code, Claude Desktop, Cursor, Windsurf, OpenCode, Codex CLI, and other MCP-compatible tools:
 
 ```bash
 npx create-webclaw
 ```
 
-Auto-detects your AI tools, downloads the MCP server, and configures everything. One command.
+The installer detects supported clients and configures the MCP server for you.
 
-### Homebrew (macOS/Linux)
+### Homebrew
 
 ```bash
 brew tap 0xMassi/webclaw
@@ -73,14 +77,7 @@ brew install webclaw
 
 ### Prebuilt binaries
 
-Download from [GitHub Releases](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/releases) for macOS (arm64, x86_64) and Linux (x86_64, aarch64).
-
-### Cargo (from source)
-
-```bash
-cargo install --git https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw.git webclaw-cli
-cargo install --git https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw.git webclaw-mcp
-```
+Download macOS and Linux binaries from [GitHub Releases](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/releases).
 
 ### Docker
 
@@ -88,89 +85,90 @@ cargo install --git https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw.git webclaw-mcp
 docker run --rm ghcr.io/0xmassi/webclaw https://example.com
 ```
 
-### Docker Compose (with Ollama for LLM features)
+### Cargo
 
 ```bash
-cp env.example .env
-docker compose up -d
+cargo install --git https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw.git webclaw-cli
+cargo install --git https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw.git webclaw-mcp
+```
+
+If building from source fails because native build tools are missing, install the platform prerequisites:
+
+| OS | Command |
+| --- | --- |
+| Debian / Ubuntu | `sudo apt install -y pkg-config libssl-dev cmake clang git build-essential` |
+| Fedora / RHEL | `sudo dnf install -y pkg-config openssl-devel cmake clang git make gcc` |
+| Arch | `sudo pacman -S pkg-config openssl cmake clang git base-devel` |
+| macOS | `xcode-select --install` |
+
+---
+
+## Quick Start
+
+### Scrape one page
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://stripe.com --format markdown
+```
+
+### Return LLM-optimized text
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://docs.anthropic.com --format llm
+```
+
+### Keep only the main content
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://example.com/blog/post --only-main-content
+```
+
+### Include or exclude selectors
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://example.com \
+  --include "article, main, .content" \
+  --exclude "nav, footer, .sidebar, .ad"
+```
+
+### Crawl a documentation site
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://docs.rust-lang.org --crawl --depth 2 --max-pages 50
+```
+
+### Workflow examples
+
+- [HTML to Markdown for RAG](examples/html-to-markdown-rag/)
+- [Firecrawl-compatible API](examples/firecrawl-compatible-api/)
+- [MCP web scraping](examples/mcp-web-scraping/)
+- [Proxy-backed crawling](examples/proxy-backed-crawling/)
+- [Cloudflare diagnostics](examples/cloudflare-diagnostics/)
+
+### Extract brand assets
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://github.com --brand
+```
+
+### Compare a page over time
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://example.com/pricing --format json > pricing-old.json
+webclaw https://example.com/pricing --diff-with pricing-old.json
 ```
 
 ---
 
-## Why webclaw?
+## MCP Server
 
-| | webclaw | Firecrawl | Trafilatura | Readability |
-|---|:---:|:---:|:---:|:---:|
-| **Extraction accuracy** | **95.1%** | — | 80.6% | 83.5% |
-| **Token efficiency** | **-67%** | — | -55% | -51% |
-| **Speed (100KB page)** | **3.2ms** | ~500ms | 18.4ms | 8.7ms |
-| **TLS fingerprinting** | Yes | No | No | No |
-| **Self-hosted** | Yes | No | Yes | Yes |
-| **MCP (Claude/Cursor)** | Yes | No | No | No |
-| **No browser required** | Yes | No | Yes | Yes |
-| **Cost** | Free | $$$$ | Free | Free |
-
-**Choose webclaw if** you want fast local extraction, LLM-optimized output, and native AI agent integration.
-
----
-
-## What it looks like
+webclaw ships with an MCP server for AI agents.
 
 ```bash
-$ webclaw https://stripe.com -f llm
-
-> URL: https://stripe.com
-> Title: Stripe | Financial Infrastructure for the Internet
-> Language: en
-> Word count: 847
-
-# Stripe | Financial Infrastructure for the Internet
-
-Stripe is a suite of APIs powering online payment processing
-and commerce solutions for internet businesses of all sizes.
-
-## Products
-- Payments — Accept payments online and in person
-- Billing — Manage subscriptions and invoicing
-- Connect — Build a marketplace or platform
-...
+npx create-webclaw
 ```
 
-```bash
-$ webclaw https://github.com --brand
-
-{
-  "name": "GitHub",
-  "colors": [{"hex": "#59636E", "usage": "Primary"}, ...],
-  "fonts": ["Mona Sans", "ui-monospace"],
-  "logos": [{"url": "https://github.githubassets.com/...", "kind": "svg"}]
-}
-```
-
-```bash
-$ webclaw https://docs.rust-lang.org --crawl --depth 2 --max-pages 50
-
-Crawling... 50/50 pages extracted
----
-# Page 1: https://docs.rust-lang.org/
-...
-# Page 2: https://docs.rust-lang.org/book/
-...
-```
-
----
-
-## MCP Server — 10 tools for AI agents
-
-<a href="https://glama.ai/mcp/servers/0xMassi/webclaw"><img src="https://glama.ai/mcp/servers/0xMassi/webclaw/badge" alt="webclaw MCP server" /></a>
-
-webclaw ships as an MCP server that plugs into Claude Desktop, Claude Code, Cursor, Windsurf, OpenCode, Antigravity, Codex CLI, and any MCP-compatible client.
-
-```bash
-npx create-webclaw    # auto-detects and configures everything
-```
-
-Or manual setup — add to your Claude Desktop config:
+Manual config:
 
 ```json
 {
@@ -182,218 +180,312 @@ Or manual setup — add to your Claude Desktop config:
 }
 ```
 
-Then in Claude: *"Scrape the top 5 results for 'web scraping tools' and compare their pricing"* — it just works.
+Then ask your agent things like:
 
-### Available tools
-
-| Tool | Description | Requires API key? |
-|------|-------------|:-:|
-| `scrape` | Extract content from any URL | No |
-| `crawl` | Recursive site crawl | No |
-| `map` | Discover URLs from sitemaps | No |
-| `batch` | Parallel multi-URL extraction | No |
-| `extract` | LLM-powered structured extraction | No (needs Ollama) |
-| `summarize` | Page summarization | No (needs Ollama) |
-| `diff` | Content change detection | No |
-| `brand` | Brand identity extraction | No |
-| `search` | Web search + scrape results | Yes |
-| `research` | Deep multi-source research | Yes |
-
-8 of 10 tools work locally — no account, no API key, fully private.
-
----
-
-## Features
-
-### Extraction
-
-- **Readability scoring** — multi-signal content detection (text density, semantic tags, link ratio)
-- **Noise filtering** — strips nav, footer, ads, modals, cookie banners (Tailwind-safe)
-- **Data island extraction** — catches React/Next.js JSON payloads, JSON-LD, hydration data
-- **YouTube metadata** — structured data from any YouTube video
-- **PDF extraction** — auto-detected via Content-Type
-- **5 output formats** — markdown, text, JSON, LLM-optimized, HTML
-
-### Content control
-
-```bash
-webclaw URL --include "article, .content"       # CSS selector include
-webclaw URL --exclude "nav, footer, .sidebar"    # CSS selector exclude
-webclaw URL --only-main-content                  # Auto-detect main content
+```text
+Scrape these competitor pricing pages and summarize the differences.
 ```
 
-### Crawling
-
-```bash
-webclaw URL --crawl --depth 3 --max-pages 100   # BFS same-origin crawl
-webclaw URL --crawl --sitemap                    # Seed from sitemap
-webclaw URL --map                                # Discover URLs only
+```text
+Crawl this documentation site and prepare clean context for a RAG index.
 ```
 
-### LLM features (Ollama / OpenAI / Anthropic)
-
-```bash
-webclaw URL --summarize                          # Page summary
-webclaw URL --extract-prompt "Get all prices"    # Natural language extraction
-webclaw URL --extract-json '{"type":"object"}'   # Schema-enforced extraction
-```
-
-### Change tracking
-
-```bash
-webclaw URL -f json > snap.json                  # Take snapshot
-webclaw URL --diff-with snap.json                # Compare later
-```
-
-### Brand extraction
-
-```bash
-webclaw URL --brand                              # Colors, fonts, logos, OG image
-```
-
-### Proxy rotation
-
-```bash
-webclaw URL --proxy http://user:pass@host:port   # Single proxy
-webclaw URLs --proxy-file proxies.txt            # Pool rotation
+```text
+Extract the brand colors, fonts, and logos from this company website.
 ```
 
 ---
 
-## Benchmarks
+## Tools
 
-All numbers from real tests on 50 diverse pages. See [benchmarks/](benchmarks/) for methodology and reproduction instructions.
-
-### Extraction quality
-
-```
-Accuracy      webclaw     ███████████████████ 95.1%
-              readability ████████████████▋   83.5%
-              trafilatura ████████████████    80.6%
-              newspaper3k █████████████▎      66.4%
-
-Noise removal webclaw     ███████████████████ 96.1%
-              readability █████████████████▊  89.4%
-              trafilatura ██████████████████▏ 91.2%
-              newspaper3k ███████████████▎    76.8%
-```
-
-### Speed (pure extraction, no network)
-
-```
-10KB page     webclaw     ██                   0.8ms
-              readability █████                2.1ms
-              trafilatura ██████████           4.3ms
-
-100KB page    webclaw     ██                   3.2ms
-              readability █████                8.7ms
-              trafilatura ██████████           18.4ms
-```
-
-### Token efficiency (feeding to Claude/GPT)
-
-| Format | Tokens | vs Raw HTML |
-|--------|:------:|:-----------:|
-| Raw HTML | 4,820 | baseline |
-| readability | 2,340 | -51% |
-| trafilatura | 2,180 | -55% |
-| **webclaw llm** | **1,590** | **-67%** |
-
-### Crawl speed
-
-| Concurrency | webclaw | Crawl4AI | Scrapy |
-|:-----------:|:-------:|:--------:|:------:|
-| 5 | **9.8 pg/s** | 5.2 pg/s | 7.1 pg/s |
-| 10 | **18.4 pg/s** | 8.7 pg/s | 12.3 pg/s |
-| 20 | **32.1 pg/s** | 14.2 pg/s | 21.8 pg/s |
+| Tool | What it does | Local |
+| --- | --- | :-: |
+| `scrape` | Extract one URL as markdown, text, JSON, LLM format, or HTML | Yes |
+| `crawl` | Follow same-origin links and extract discovered pages | Yes |
+| `map` | Discover URLs without extracting every page | Yes |
+| `batch` | Scrape multiple URLs in parallel | Yes |
+| `extract` | Convert page content into structured data | Yes, with local or configured LLM |
+| `summarize` | Summarize a page | Yes, with local or configured LLM |
+| `diff` | Compare page content snapshots | Yes |
+| `brand` | Extract colors, fonts, logos, and metadata | Yes |
+| `search` | Search the web and scrape results | Hosted API |
+| `research` | Multi-source research workflow | Hosted API |
 
 ---
 
+## SDKs
+
+```bash
+npm install @webclaw/sdk
+pip install webclaw
+go get github.com/0xMassi/webclaw-go
+```
+
+<details>
+<summary>TypeScript</summary>
+
+```ts
+import { Webclaw } from "@webclaw/sdk";
+
+const client = new Webclaw({ apiKey: process.env.WEBCLAW_API_KEY! });
+
+const page = await client.scrape({
+  url: "https://example.com",
+  formats: ["markdown"],
+  only_main_content: true,
+});
+
+console.log(page.markdown);
+```
+
+</details>
+
+<details>
+<summary>Python</summary>
+
+```python
+from webclaw import Webclaw
+
+client = Webclaw(api_key="wc_your_key")
+
+page = client.scrape(
+    "https://example.com",
+    formats=["markdown"],
+    only_main_content=True,
+)
+
+print(page.markdown)
+```
+
+</details>
+
+<details>
+<summary>cURL</summary>
+
+```bash
+curl -X POST https://api.webclaw.io/v1/scrape \
+  -H "Authorization: Bearer $WEBCLAW_API_KEY" \
+  -H "Content-Type: application/json" \
+  -d '{
+    "url": "https://example.com",
+    "formats": ["markdown"],
+    "only_main_content": true
+  }'
+```
+
+</details>
+
+---
+
+## Output Formats
+
+| Format | Use it when you need |
+| --- | --- |
+| `markdown` | Clean page content with structure preserved |
+| `llm` | Compact context for agents and RAG pipelines |
+| `text` | Plain text with minimal formatting |
+| `json` | Structured metadata, links, images, and extracted fields |
+| `html` | Cleaned HTML for custom processing |
+
+---
+
+## Local First, Hosted When Needed
+
+The CLI and MCP server work locally without an account for the core extraction path.
+
+Use the hosted API at [webclaw.io](https://webclaw.io) when you need:
+
+- protected-site access without managing infrastructure
+- JavaScript rendering
+- async crawl and research jobs
+- web search
+- watches and production usage tracking
+- SDKs for application code
+
+```bash
+export WEBCLAW_API_KEY=wc_your_key
+
+webclaw https://example.com --cloud
+```
+
+---
+
+## What You Can Build
+
+| Use case | Example |
+| --- | --- |
+| AI agent web access | Give Claude, Cursor, or another MCP client clean page context |
+| RAG ingestion | Crawl docs, help centers, blogs, and knowledge bases |
+| Competitor monitoring | Track pricing pages, changelogs, docs, and product pages |
+| Structured extraction | Turn messy pages into typed JSON for automations |
+| Research workflows | Search, scrape, summarize, and cite multiple sources |
+| Brand intelligence | Extract logos, colors, fonts, and social metadata |
+
 ## Architecture
 
-```
+```text
 webclaw/
   crates/
-    webclaw-core     Pure extraction engine. Zero network deps. WASM-safe.
-    webclaw-fetch    HTTP client + TLS fingerprinting (wreq/BoringSSL). Crawler. Batch ops.
-    webclaw-llm      LLM provider chain (Ollama -> OpenAI -> Anthropic)
+    webclaw-core     HTML to markdown, text, JSON, and LLM-ready output
+    webclaw-fetch    Fetching, crawling, batching, and mapping
+    webclaw-llm      Local and hosted LLM provider support
     webclaw-pdf      PDF text extraction
-    webclaw-mcp      MCP server (10 tools for AI agents)
-    webclaw-cli      CLI binary
+    webclaw-mcp      MCP server for AI agents
+    webclaw-cli      Command-line interface
 ```
 
-`webclaw-core` takes raw HTML as a `&str` and returns structured output. No I/O, no network, no allocator tricks. Can compile to WASM.
+`webclaw-core` is pure extraction logic: no network I/O, small surface area, and usable independently from the fetching layer.
 
 ---
 
 ## Configuration
 
 | Variable | Description |
-|----------|-------------|
-| `WEBCLAW_API_KEY` | Cloud API key (enables bot bypass, JS rendering, search, research) |
-| `OLLAMA_HOST` | Ollama URL for local LLM features (default: `http://localhost:11434`) |
-| `OPENAI_API_KEY` | OpenAI API key for LLM features |
-| `ANTHROPIC_API_KEY` | Anthropic API key for LLM features |
+| --- | --- |
+| `WEBCLAW_API_KEY` | Hosted API key |
+| `OLLAMA_HOST` | Ollama URL for local LLM features |
+| `OPENAI_API_KEY` | OpenAI-compatible LLM provider key |
+| `OPENAI_BASE_URL` | OpenAI-compatible base URL |
+| `ANTHROPIC_API_KEY` | Anthropic-compatible LLM provider key |
+| `ANTHROPIC_BASE_URL` | Anthropic-compatible base URL |
 | `WEBCLAW_PROXY` | Single proxy URL |
-| `WEBCLAW_PROXY_FILE` | Path to proxy pool file |
+| `WEBCLAW_PROXY_FILE` | Proxy pool file |
 
 ---
 
-## Cloud API (optional)
-
-For bot-protected sites, JS rendering, and advanced features, webclaw offers a hosted API at [webclaw.io](https://webclaw.io).
-
-The CLI and MCP server work locally first. Cloud is used as a fallback when:
-- A site has bot protection (Cloudflare, DataDome, WAF)
-- A page requires JavaScript rendering
-- You use search or research tools
-
-```bash
-export WEBCLAW_API_KEY=wc_your_key
-
-# Automatic: tries local first, cloud on bot detection
-webclaw https://protected-site.com
-
-# Force cloud
-webclaw --cloud https://spa-site.com
-```
-
-### SDKs
-
-```bash
-npm install @webclaw/sdk                  # TypeScript/JavaScript
-pip install webclaw                        # Python
-go get github.com/0xMassi/webclaw-go      # Go
-```
-
----
-
-## Use cases
-
-- **AI agents** — Give Claude/Cursor/GPT real-time web access via MCP
-- **Research** — Crawl documentation, competitor sites, news archives
-- **Price monitoring** — Track changes with `--diff-with` snapshots
-- **Training data** — Prepare web content for fine-tuning with token-optimized output
-- **Content pipelines** — Batch extract + summarize in CI/CD
-- **Brand intelligence** — Extract visual identity from any website
-
----
-
-## Community
-
-- [Discord](https://discord.gg/KDfd48EpnW) — questions, feedback, show what you built
-- [GitHub Issues](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/issues) — bug reports and feature requests
-
 ## Contributing
 
-We welcome contributions! See [CONTRIBUTING.md](CONTRIBUTING.md) for guidelines.
+The most useful contributions right now are practical and small:
+
+- add examples for real agent and RAG workflows
+- improve SDK snippets
+- report pages that extract poorly
+- add failing fixtures for messy HTML
+- improve docs for MCP clients and local setup
+- test the CLI on more Linux/macOS environments
+
+Good first places to start:
 
 - [Good first issues](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/issues?q=label%3A%22good+first+issue%22)
-- [Architecture docs](CONTRIBUTING.md#architecture)
+- [Open a bug report](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/issues/new)
+- [Start a discussion](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/discussions)
 
-## Acknowledgments
+If a page extracts badly, include:
 
-TLS and HTTP/2 browser fingerprinting is powered by [wreq](https://github.com/0x676e67/wreq) and [http2](https://github.com/0x676e67/http2) by [@0x676e67](https://github.com/0x676e67), who pioneered browser-grade HTTP/2 fingerprinting in Rust.
+```text
+URL:
+Command or API request:
+Expected output:
+Actual output:
+Format used: markdown / llm / text / json / html
+CLI, MCP, SDK, or API:
+```
+
+Please remove secrets, cookies, private tokens, and customer data from logs before posting.
+
+---
+
+## Infrastructure Partner
+
+<table>
+  <tr>
+    <td align="center">
+      <a href="https://coldproxy.com/">
+        <img src="./assets/sponsors/coldproxy-banner.png" alt="ColdProxy" width="720" />
+      </a>
+    </td>
+  </tr>
+  <tr>
+    <td>
+      <strong>ColdProxy</strong> supports webclaw as an Infrastructure Partner, providing residential IPv4,
+      residential IPv6, and datacenter IPv6 proxy infrastructure across 195+ countries for public data
+      collection, regional testing, monitoring, and web scraping workflows. Explore
+      <a href="https://coldproxy.com/">ColdProxy</a>'s latest plans and available offers directly on the website.
+    </td>
+  </tr>
+</table>
+
+---
+
+## Studio Partners
+
+<table>
+  <tr>
+    <td width="340" align="center">
+      <a href="https://quantumproxies.net/?utm_source=webclaw&utm_medium=github&utm_campaign=sponsor">
+        <img src="./assets/sponsors/quantum-proxies-banner.png" alt="Quantum Proxies" width="300" />
+      </a>
+    </td>
+    <td>
+      <strong>Quantum Proxies</strong> provides fast, reliable residential and ISP proxy infrastructure for developers running large-scale extraction workloads.
+      Get 20% off any plan with code <code>WEBCLAW20</code> at
+      <a href="https://quantumproxies.net/?utm_source=webclaw&utm_medium=github&utm_campaign=sponsor">quantumproxies.net</a>.
+    </td>
+  </tr>
+  <tr>
+    <td width="340" align="center">
+      <a href="https://proxy-seller.com/?partner=KXMQNNLIGHXR4B">
+        <img src="./assets/sponsors/proxy-seller-banner.png" alt="Proxy-Seller" width="300" />
+      </a>
+    </td>
+    <td>
+      <strong>Proxy-Seller</strong> maintains a global network of residential and datacenter proxies optimized for web extraction at scale.
+      The service supports high-volume concurrent scraping, geographic rotation, and integration with web extraction tools.
+      Use code <code>WBC15</code> for 15% off IPv4, IPv6, ISP, and Residential proxies, and 10% off Mobile at
+      <a href="https://proxy-seller.com/?partner=KXMQNNLIGHXR4B">proxy-seller.com</a>.
+    </td>
+  </tr>
+  <tr>
+    <td width="340" align="center">
+      <a href="https://www.rapidproxy.io/?ref=webclaw">
+        <img src="./assets/sponsors/rapidproxy-banner.png" alt="RapidProxy" width="300" />
+      </a>
+    </td>
+    <td>
+      <strong>RapidProxy</strong> delivers fast, reliable proxy infrastructure for large-scale data collection.
+      With 90M+ residential IPs, smart rotation, high concurrency, AI-powered CAPTCHA bypass, and non-expiring traffic, it helps keep scraping workflows stable at scale.
+      Use code <code>webclaw</code> for 10% off, or
+      <a href="https://www.rapidproxy.io/?ref=webclaw">Try it free</a>.
+    </td>
+  </tr>
+</table>
+
+---
+
+## Community Plugins
+
+Third-party plugins that integrate webclaw with AI agent platforms:
+
+| Plugin | Platform | What it does |
+|---|---|---|
+| [openclaw-webclaw](https://github.com/jal-co/openclaw-webclaw) | [OpenClaw](https://openclaw.ai) | Native webclaw v1 API plugin with 9 tools: scrape, search, crawl, extract, summarize, diff, map, batch, brand |
+| [hermes-webclaw](https://github.com/jal-co/hermes-webclaw) | [Hermes Agent](https://github.com/NousResearch/hermes-agent) | Web search provider and 9 dedicated tools for the full v1 API surface. Install with `hermes plugins install jal-co/hermes-webclaw` |
+
+Built a webclaw integration? [Open a PR](https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/pulls) to add it here.
+
+---
+
+## Contributors
+
+Thanks to everyone improving webclaw through issues, examples, docs, bug reports, and pull requests.
+
+<a href="https://github.com/0xMassi/webclaw/graphs/contributors">
+  <img src="https://contrib.rocks/image?repo=0xMassi/webclaw" alt="webclaw contributors" />
+</a>
+
+---
+
+## Star History
+
+<a href="https://www.star-history.com/?repos=0xMassi%2Fwebclaw&type=date&legend=top-left">
+ <picture>
+   <source media="(prefers-color-scheme: dark)" srcset="https://api.star-history.com/chart?repos=0xMassi/webclaw&type=date&theme=dark&legend=top-left" />
+   <source media="(prefers-color-scheme: light)" srcset="https://api.star-history.com/chart?repos=0xMassi/webclaw&type=date&legend=top-left" />
+   <img alt="Star History Chart" src="https://api.star-history.com/chart?repos=0xMassi/webclaw&type=date&legend=top-left" />
+ </picture>
+</a>
+
+---
 
 ## License
 
diff --git a/assets/sponsors/coldproxy-banner.png b/assets/sponsors/coldproxy-banner.png
new file mode 100644
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index 0000000..6f9f15d
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diff --git a/assets/sponsors/quantum-proxies-banner.png b/assets/sponsors/quantum-proxies-banner.png
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..31c5781
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diff --git a/assets/sponsors/quantum-proxies.png b/assets/sponsors/quantum-proxies.png
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..ffd449d
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diff --git a/assets/sponsors/rapidproxy-banner.png b/assets/sponsors/rapidproxy-banner.png
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..1a3369b
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diff --git a/crates/webclaw-cli/src/main.rs b/crates/webclaw-cli/src/main.rs
index e97f15d..1348824 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-cli/src/main.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-cli/src/main.rs
@@ -35,18 +35,49 @@ const ANTIBOT_TITLES: &[&str] = &[
     "ddos protection",
 ];
 
-/// Detect why a page returned empty content.
+/// URL host/path fragments that indicate a GDPR/cookie consent redirect.
+const CONSENT_URL_FRAGMENTS: &[&str] = &[
+    "://consent.",
+    "/consent?",
+    "/consent/",
+    "collectconsent",
+    "consentcheck",
+    "/cmp/",
+    "guce.advertising.com",
+];
+
+/// English consent-wall title prefixes. Many providers localize this page, so
+/// this is a best-effort secondary signal. URL shape is the primary signal.
+const CONSENT_TITLES: &[&str] = &[
+    "before you continue",
+    "your privacy choices",
+    "we value your privacy",
+    "we care about your privacy",
+    "cookie consent",
+    "consent required",
+];
+
+/// Detect why a page returned empty or near-empty content.
+#[derive(Debug, PartialEq, Eq)]
 enum EmptyReason {
     /// Anti-bot challenge page (Cloudflare, Akamai, etc.)
     Antibot,
+    /// GDPR/cookie consent redirect.
+    ConsentWall,
     /// JS-only SPA that returns an empty shell without a browser
     JsRequired,
-    /// Page has content — not empty
+    /// Page has content.
     None,
 }
 
 fn detect_empty(result: &ExtractionResult) -> EmptyReason {
-    // Has real content — nothing to warn about
+    // Consent walls can have a tiny body, so check before the content
+    // short-circuit.
+    if is_consent_wall(result) {
+        return EmptyReason::ConsentWall;
+    }
+
+    // Has real content. Nothing to warn about.
     if result.metadata.word_count > 50 || !result.content.markdown.is_empty() {
         return EmptyReason::None;
     }
@@ -67,6 +98,35 @@ fn detect_empty(result: &ExtractionResult) -> EmptyReason {
     EmptyReason::None
 }
 
+/// A consent wall is identified by either:
+/// 1. The final URL pointing at a known consent host/path, or
+/// 2. A consent-wall title prefix with a very small body.
+fn is_consent_wall(result: &ExtractionResult) -> bool {
+    if let Some(ref url) = result.metadata.url {
+        let lower = url.to_ascii_lowercase();
+        if CONSENT_URL_FRAGMENTS
+            .iter()
+            .any(|fragment| lower.contains(fragment))
+        {
+            return true;
+        }
+    }
+
+    if result.metadata.word_count <= 50
+        && let Some(ref title) = result.metadata.title
+    {
+        let lower = title.to_lowercase();
+        if CONSENT_TITLES
+            .iter()
+            .any(|prefix| lower.starts_with(prefix))
+        {
+            return true;
+        }
+    }
+
+    false
+}
+
 fn warn_empty(url: &str, reason: &EmptyReason) {
     match reason {
         EmptyReason::Antibot => eprintln!(
@@ -74,6 +134,12 @@ fn warn_empty(url: &str, reason: &EmptyReason) {
              This site requires CAPTCHA solving or browser rendering.\n\
              Use the webclaw Cloud API for automatic bypass: https://webclaw.io/pricing"
         ),
+        EmptyReason::ConsentWall => eprintln!(
+            "\x1b[33mwarning:\x1b[0m GDPR/cookie consent wall detected on {url}\n\
+             The site redirected to a consent page and returned no usable content.\n\
+             Try a different region via --proxy, or pass a pre-accepted consent cookie\n\
+             via --cookie / --cookie-file."
+        ),
         EmptyReason::JsRequired => eprintln!(
             "\x1b[33mwarning:\x1b[0m No content extracted from {url}\n\
              This site requires JavaScript rendering (SPA).\n\
@@ -260,7 +326,7 @@ struct Cli {
     #[arg(long, env = "WEBCLAW_LLM_MODEL")]
     llm_model: Option<String>,
 
-    /// Override the LLM base URL (Ollama or OpenAI-compatible)
+    /// Override the LLM base URL (Ollama, OpenAI-compatible, or Anthropic-compatible)
     #[arg(long, env = "WEBCLAW_LLM_BASE_URL")]
     llm_base_url: Option<String>,
 
@@ -387,10 +453,14 @@ impl From<Browser> for BrowserProfile {
 }
 
 fn init_logging(verbose: bool) {
+    // html5ever / markup5ever / selectors emit WARN on common real-world HTML
+    // quirks. They are rarely actionable for CLI users, so keep them quiet by
+    // default while still allowing WEBCLAW_LOG to override the filter.
+    let default = "warn,html5ever=error,markup5ever=error,selectors=error";
     let filter = if verbose {
-        EnvFilter::new("webclaw=debug")
+        EnvFilter::new("webclaw=debug,html5ever=error,markup5ever=error,selectors=error")
     } else {
-        EnvFilter::try_from_env("WEBCLAW_LOG").unwrap_or_else(|_| EnvFilter::new("warn"))
+        EnvFilter::try_from_env("WEBCLAW_LOG").unwrap_or_else(|_| EnvFilter::new(default))
     };
 
     tracing_subscriber::fmt().with_env_filter(filter).init();
@@ -543,7 +613,15 @@ fn url_to_filename(raw_url: &str, format: &OutputFormat) -> String {
         Err(_) => (String::new(), String::new(), None),
     };
 
-    let mut stem = path.trim_matches('/').to_string();
+    // Drop empty / "." / ".." path segments so a URL path like
+    // `/../../etc/passwd` can't climb out of the output directory.
+    let cleaned_path: String = path
+        .split('/')
+        .filter(|seg| !seg.is_empty() && *seg != "." && *seg != "..")
+        .collect::<Vec<_>>()
+        .join("/");
+
+    let mut stem = cleaned_path;
     if stem.is_empty() {
         // Use hostname for root URLs to avoid collisions in batch mode
         let clean_host = host.strip_prefix("www.").unwrap_or(&host);
@@ -570,13 +648,59 @@ fn url_to_filename(raw_url: &str, format: &OutputFormat) -> String {
     format!("{sanitized}.{ext}")
 }
 
+/// Reject a caller-supplied (CSV `url,filename`) name that could escape the
+/// output directory: absolute paths, drive prefixes, root, or any `..`
+/// component. Returns the validated relative path on success.
+fn safe_relative_filename(filename: &str) -> Result<PathBuf, String> {
+    let candidate = Path::new(filename);
+    use std::path::Component;
+    for comp in candidate.components() {
+        match comp {
+            Component::Normal(_) | Component::CurDir => {}
+            Component::ParentDir => {
+                return Err(format!("refusing path with '..' component: {filename}"));
+            }
+            Component::RootDir | Component::Prefix(_) => {
+                return Err(format!("refusing absolute output path: {filename}"));
+            }
+        }
+    }
+    if candidate.as_os_str().is_empty() {
+        return Err("empty output filename".to_string());
+    }
+    Ok(candidate.to_path_buf())
+}
+
 /// Write extraction output to a file inside `dir`, creating parent dirs as needed.
+///
+/// `filename` may originate from an attacker-controlled `--urls-file`
+/// (`url,filename` CSV). It is validated for traversal, and the canonical
+/// destination directory is asserted to stay under the canonical output
+/// directory before any write.
 fn write_to_file(dir: &Path, filename: &str, content: &str) -> Result<(), String> {
-    let dest = dir.join(filename);
+    let rel = safe_relative_filename(filename)?;
+    let dest = dir.join(&rel);
+
+    std::fs::create_dir_all(dir)
+        .map_err(|e| format!("failed to create directory {}: {e}", dir.display()))?;
+    let base = dir
+        .canonicalize()
+        .map_err(|e| format!("failed to resolve output dir {}: {e}", dir.display()))?;
+
     if let Some(parent) = dest.parent() {
         std::fs::create_dir_all(parent)
             .map_err(|e| format!("failed to create directory {}: {e}", parent.display()))?;
+        let canon_parent = parent
+            .canonicalize()
+            .map_err(|e| format!("failed to resolve {}: {e}", parent.display()))?;
+        if !canon_parent.starts_with(&base) {
+            return Err(format!(
+                "refusing to write outside output dir: {}",
+                dest.display()
+            ));
+        }
     }
+
     std::fs::write(&dest, content)
         .map_err(|e| format!("failed to write {}: {e}", dest.display()))?;
     let word_count = content.split_whitespace().count();
@@ -849,11 +973,18 @@ async fn enrich_html_with_stylesheets(html: &str, base_url: &str) -> String {
 
     let client = reqwest::Client::builder()
         .timeout(std::time::Duration::from_secs(5))
+        .redirect(reqwest::redirect::Policy::none())
         .build()
         .unwrap_or_default();
 
     let mut extra_css = String::new();
     for href in &hrefs {
+        if webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(href)
+            .await
+            .is_err()
+        {
+            continue;
+        }
         if let Ok(resp) = client.get(href).send().await
             && resp.status().is_success()
             && let Ok(body) = resp.text().await
@@ -1602,6 +1733,13 @@ fn fire_webhook(url: &str, payload: &serde_json::Value) {
         serde_json::to_string(payload).unwrap_or_default()
     };
     tokio::spawn(async move {
+        // SSRF guard: a webhook URL is user-supplied and otherwise bypasses
+        // the fetch-layer protections, so resolve + reject private/internal
+        // destinations before sending the payload.
+        if let Err(e) = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&url).await {
+            eprintln!("[webhook] refusing unsafe URL: {e}");
+            return;
+        }
         match reqwest::Client::builder()
             .timeout(std::time::Duration::from_secs(10))
             .build()
@@ -1673,7 +1811,9 @@ async fn run_watch_single(
     );
 
     loop {
-        tokio::time::sleep(std::time::Duration::from_secs(cli.watch_interval)).await;
+        // Clamp to >=1s: `--watch-interval 0` would otherwise spin the
+        // fetch loop with zero delay and hammer the target.
+        tokio::time::sleep(std::time::Duration::from_secs(cli.watch_interval.max(1))).await;
 
         if cancelled.load(Ordering::Relaxed) {
             eprintln!("[watch] Stopped");
@@ -1765,7 +1905,9 @@ async fn run_watch_multi(
     let mut check_number = 0u64;
 
     loop {
-        tokio::time::sleep(std::time::Duration::from_secs(cli.watch_interval)).await;
+        // Clamp to >=1s: `--watch-interval 0` would otherwise spin the
+        // fetch loop with zero delay and hammer the target.
+        tokio::time::sleep(std::time::Duration::from_secs(cli.watch_interval.max(1))).await;
 
         if cancelled.load(Ordering::Relaxed) {
             eprintln!("[watch] Stopped");
@@ -1919,8 +2061,9 @@ async fn build_llm_provider(cli: &Cli) -> Result<Box<dyn LlmProvider>, String> {
                 Ok(Box::new(provider))
             }
             "anthropic" => {
-                let provider = webclaw_llm::providers::anthropic::AnthropicProvider::new(
+                let provider = webclaw_llm::providers::anthropic::AnthropicProvider::with_base_url(
                     None,
+                    cli.llm_base_url.clone(),
                     cli.llm_model.clone(),
                 )
                 .ok_or("ANTHROPIC_API_KEY not set")?;
@@ -2243,7 +2386,9 @@ async fn run_research(cli: &Cli, query: &str) -> Result<(), String> {
                     .collect::<Vec<_>>()
                     .join("-")
                     .to_lowercase();
-                let slug = if slug.len() > 50 { &slug[..50] } else { &slug };
+                // char-safe truncation: byte slicing panics if char 50
+                // lands mid-codepoint (multibyte queries).
+                let slug: String = slug.chars().take(50).collect();
                 let filename = format!("research-{slug}.json");
 
                 let json = serde_json::to_string_pretty(&status_resp).unwrap_or_default();
@@ -2539,6 +2684,64 @@ async fn main() {
 #[cfg(test)]
 mod tests {
     use super::*;
+    use webclaw_core::Content;
+
+    fn empty_result(title: Option<&str>, url: Option<&str>, markdown: &str) -> ExtractionResult {
+        ExtractionResult {
+            metadata: Metadata {
+                title: title.map(str::to_string),
+                description: None,
+                author: None,
+                published_date: None,
+                language: None,
+                url: url.map(str::to_string),
+                site_name: None,
+                image: None,
+                favicon: None,
+                word_count: markdown.split_whitespace().count(),
+            },
+            content: Content {
+                markdown: markdown.to_string(),
+                plain_text: markdown.to_string(),
+                links: vec![],
+                images: vec![],
+                code_blocks: vec![],
+                raw_html: None,
+            },
+            domain_data: None,
+            structured_data: vec![],
+        }
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn detect_empty_identifies_consent_redirect_url() {
+        let result = empty_result(
+            Some("Yahoo"),
+            Some("https://guce.advertising.com/collectIdentifiers?sessionId=abc"),
+            "Continue",
+        );
+        assert_eq!(detect_empty(&result), EmptyReason::ConsentWall);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn detect_empty_identifies_short_consent_title() {
+        let result = empty_result(
+            Some("Before you continue"),
+            Some("https://www.google.com/"),
+            "Review privacy options",
+        );
+        assert_eq!(detect_empty(&result), EmptyReason::ConsentWall);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn detect_empty_does_not_flag_real_content_with_consent_words() {
+        let result = empty_result(
+            Some("Cookie consent patterns explained"),
+            Some("https://example.com/blog"),
+            "This article explains cookie consent patterns for product teams with enough real body text to be useful. It covers consent banners, privacy controls, analytics configuration, regional requirements, product tradeoffs, implementation details, testing flows, debugging notes, accessibility needs, and operational lessons from real teams shipping public websites across multiple markets. It also explains measurement, rollout planning, copy review, support workflows, design constraints, release notes, and how to keep privacy choices understandable for users.",
+        );
+        assert_eq!(detect_empty(&result), EmptyReason::None);
+    }
 
     #[test]
     fn url_to_filename_root() {
@@ -2637,4 +2840,66 @@ mod tests {
         assert_eq!(content, "hello");
         let _ = std::fs::remove_dir_all(&dir);
     }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn url_to_filename_strips_traversal_segments() {
+        // `..` / `.` / empty path segments must not survive into the path.
+        let out = url_to_filename(
+            "https://example.com/../../etc/passwd",
+            &OutputFormat::Markdown,
+        );
+        assert!(!out.contains(".."), "traversal leaked: {out}");
+        assert_eq!(out, "etc/passwd.md");
+        let out2 = url_to_filename("https://example.com/a/./b//c", &OutputFormat::Json);
+        assert_eq!(out2, "a/b/c.json");
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn safe_relative_filename_rejects_escapes() {
+        assert!(safe_relative_filename("../escape.md").is_err());
+        assert!(safe_relative_filename("a/../../b.md").is_err());
+        assert!(safe_relative_filename("/etc/passwd").is_err());
+        assert!(safe_relative_filename("").is_err());
+        // Normal nested relative names stay allowed.
+        assert!(safe_relative_filename("nested/deep/file.md").is_ok());
+        assert!(safe_relative_filename("./ok.md").is_ok());
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn write_to_file_refuses_traversal_filename() {
+        let dir = std::env::temp_dir().join("webclaw_test_traversal_dir");
+        let _ = std::fs::remove_dir_all(&dir);
+        // CSV-supplied `url,filename` traversal attempt.
+        let err = write_to_file(&dir, "../../tmp/webclaw_pwned.md", "x").unwrap_err();
+        assert!(err.contains("refusing"), "unexpected error: {err}");
+        assert!(
+            !std::path::Path::new("/tmp/webclaw_pwned.md").exists(),
+            "traversal write escaped the output dir"
+        );
+        let _ = std::fs::remove_dir_all(&dir);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn research_slug_truncation_is_char_safe() {
+        // Multibyte query: byte-slicing at 50 would panic mid-codepoint.
+        let query = "日本語".repeat(40); // 120 chars, 3 bytes each
+        let slug: String = query
+            .chars()
+            .map(|c| {
+                if c.is_alphanumeric() || c == ' ' {
+                    c
+                } else {
+                    ' '
+                }
+            })
+            .collect::<String>()
+            .split_whitespace()
+            .collect::<Vec<_>>()
+            .join("-")
+            .to_lowercase();
+        let slug: String = slug.chars().take(50).collect();
+        assert!(slug.chars().count() <= 50);
+        // Round-trips through formatting without panicking.
+        let _ = format!("research-{slug}.json");
+    }
 }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/Cargo.toml b/crates/webclaw-core/Cargo.toml
index 497e002..5c2743a 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/Cargo.toml
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/Cargo.toml
@@ -4,6 +4,10 @@ description = "Pure HTML content extraction engine for LLMs"
 version.workspace = true
 edition.workspace = true
 license.workspace = true
+# Reddit regression fixtures are real old.reddit.com pages read at test time;
+# they're large and only needed to run the test suite from the repo, so keep
+# them out of the published crate.
+exclude = ["testdata/reddit/*.html"]
 
 [features]
 default = ["quickjs"]
@@ -20,6 +24,11 @@ url = { version = "2", features = ["serde"] }
 regex = "1"
 once_cell = "1"
 similar = "2"
+
+# rquickjs links a C library and cannot build for wasm32. Gating it per
+# target keeps the `quickjs` feature usable on native while leaving the
+# crate WASM-safe even with default features enabled.
+[target.'cfg(not(target_arch = "wasm32"))'.dependencies]
 rquickjs = { version = "0.9", features = ["classes", "properties"], optional = true }
 
 [dev-dependencies]
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/brand.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/brand.rs
index 52eb1b7..8f6de53 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/brand.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/brand.rs
@@ -79,9 +79,19 @@ static HSL_COLOR: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| {
         .unwrap()
 });
 
-/// Matches font-family values
-static FONT_FAMILY: Lazy<Regex> =
-    Lazy::new(|| Regex::new(r"(?i)font-family\s*:\s*([^;}{]+)").unwrap());
+/// Matches the family tail of CSS `font:` shorthand after size/line-height.
+static FONT_SHORTHAND_FAMILY: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| {
+    Regex::new(
+        r#"(?ix)
+        (?:^|\s)
+        (?:xx-small|x-small|small|medium|large|x-large|xx-large|larger|smaller|\d*\.?\d+(?:px|rem|em|pt|pc|in|cm|mm|%|vw|vh|vmin|vmax))
+        (?:\s*/\s*[^\s,]+)?
+        \s+
+        (.+)$
+    "#,
+    )
+    .unwrap()
+});
 
 macro_rules! selector {
     ($s:expr) => {{
@@ -102,12 +112,12 @@ pub fn extract_brand(html: &str, url: Option<&str>) -> BrandIdentity {
     let doc = Html::parse_document(html);
     let base_url = url.and_then(|u| Url::parse(u).ok());
 
+    let name = extract_brand_name(&doc);
     let css_sources = collect_css(&doc);
-    let colors = extract_colors(&css_sources);
-    let fonts = extract_fonts(&css_sources);
+    let colors = extract_colors(&css_sources, name.as_deref());
+    let fonts = extract_fonts(&css_sources, name.as_deref());
     let logo_url = find_logo(&doc, base_url.as_ref());
     let favicon_url = find_favicon(&doc, base_url.as_ref());
-    let name = extract_brand_name(&doc);
     let logos = find_all_logos(&doc, base_url.as_ref());
     let og_image = find_og_image(&doc, base_url.as_ref());
 
@@ -390,7 +400,7 @@ fn is_boring_color(hex: &str) -> bool {
     )
 }
 
-fn extract_colors(decls: &[CssDecl]) -> Vec<BrandColor> {
+fn extract_colors(decls: &[CssDecl], brand_name: Option<&str>) -> Vec<BrandColor> {
     // Track (hex, usage) -> count
     let mut counts: HashMap<String, HashMap<ColorUsage, usize>> = HashMap::new();
 
@@ -429,6 +439,8 @@ fn extract_colors(decls: &[CssDecl]) -> Vec<BrandColor> {
     // Sort by frequency (descending)
     colors.sort_by_key(|c| std::cmp::Reverse(c.count));
 
+    demote_or_remove_oauth_palette(&mut colors, brand_name);
+
     // Promote top non-white/black to Primary/Secondary if they're still Unknown
     let mut assigned_primary = colors.iter().any(|c| c.usage == ColorUsage::Primary);
     let mut assigned_secondary = colors.iter().any(|c| c.usage == ColorUsage::Secondary);
@@ -450,6 +462,28 @@ fn extract_colors(decls: &[CssDecl]) -> Vec<BrandColor> {
     colors
 }
 
+const GOOGLE_OAUTH_COLORS: &[&str] = &[
+    "#1A73E8", "#4285F4", "#34A853", "#FBBC05", "#EA4335", "#5F6368", "#202124", "#E8EAED",
+    "#F1F3F4",
+];
+
+fn demote_or_remove_oauth_palette(colors: &mut Vec<BrandColor>, brand_name: Option<&str>) {
+    let brand = brand_name.unwrap_or("").to_ascii_lowercase();
+    if brand.contains("google") {
+        return;
+    }
+
+    let google_hits = colors
+        .iter()
+        .filter(|c| GOOGLE_OAUTH_COLORS.contains(&c.hex.as_str()))
+        .count();
+    if google_hits < 3 {
+        return;
+    }
+
+    colors.retain(|c| !GOOGLE_OAUTH_COLORS.contains(&c.hex.as_str()));
+}
+
 fn classify_color_property(property: &str) -> ColorUsage {
     match property {
         "background-color" | "background" => ColorUsage::Background,
@@ -584,31 +618,55 @@ const GENERIC_FONTS: &[&str] = &[
     "initial",
     "unset",
     "revert",
+    "arial",
+    "times",
+    "times new roman",
+    "courier new",
+    "georgia",
+    "menlo",
+    "monaco",
+    "consolas",
+    "liberation mono",
+    "sf mono",
+    "sfmono-regular",
+    "source code pro",
+    "apple color emoji",
+    "segoe ui",
+    "segoe ui emoji",
+    "segoe ui symbol",
+    "noto color emoji",
+    "blinkmacsystemfont",
+    "-apple-system",
 ];
 
-fn extract_fonts(decls: &[CssDecl]) -> Vec<String> {
+fn extract_fonts(decls: &[CssDecl], brand_name: Option<&str>) -> Vec<String> {
     let mut freq: HashMap<String, usize> = HashMap::new();
+    let brand = brand_name.unwrap_or("").to_ascii_lowercase();
 
     for decl in decls {
         if decl.property != "font-family" && decl.property != "font" {
             continue;
         }
 
-        // For shorthand `font:`, try to extract font-family portion
+        // For shorthand `font:`, extract only the family tail after the
+        // size/line-height token. The previous implementation treated values
+        // like `500 12px Roboto` as a font family, which polluted `/v1/brand`
+        // output with CSS declarations instead of usable family names.
         let family_str = if decl.property == "font" {
-            // font shorthand: the font-family is the last part after the size.
-            // Heuristic: take everything after a `/` or after `px`/`em`/`rem`/`%` + space
-            FONT_FAMILY
-                .captures(&format!("font-family: {}", &decl.value))
-                .map(|c| c[1].to_string())
-                .unwrap_or_else(|| decl.value.clone())
+            match parse_font_shorthand_family(&decl.value) {
+                Some(family) => family,
+                None => continue,
+            }
         } else {
             decl.value.clone()
         };
 
         for font in split_font_families(&family_str) {
             let lower = font.to_lowercase();
-            if !GENERIC_FONTS.contains(&lower.as_str()) && !is_junk_font_name(&lower) {
+            if !GENERIC_FONTS.contains(&lower.as_str())
+                && !is_junk_font_name(&lower)
+                && !is_third_party_auth_font(&lower, &brand)
+            {
                 *freq.entry(font).or_insert(0) += 1;
             }
         }
@@ -619,6 +677,32 @@ fn extract_fonts(decls: &[CssDecl]) -> Vec<String> {
     fonts.into_iter().map(|(name, _)| name).collect()
 }
 
+fn is_third_party_auth_font(name: &str, brand_name: &str) -> bool {
+    !brand_name.contains("google") && name.contains("google sans")
+}
+
+fn parse_font_shorthand_family(value: &str) -> Option<String> {
+    let caps = FONT_SHORTHAND_FAMILY.captures(value)?;
+    let mut family = caps.get(1)?.as_str().trim().to_string();
+
+    // Drop the optional slash line-height residue if it was not consumed due
+    // to unusual whitespace, then leave comma-separated family names intact.
+    if let Some(stripped) = family.strip_prefix('/') {
+        family = stripped
+            .split_once(' ')
+            .map(|(_, rest)| rest)
+            .unwrap_or("")
+            .trim()
+            .to_string();
+    }
+
+    if family.is_empty() {
+        None
+    } else {
+        Some(family)
+    }
+}
+
 /// Filter out junk font names: CSS variables, hex hashes (Next.js font optimization),
 /// single-character names, and other non-human-readable values.
 fn is_junk_font_name(name: &str) -> bool {
@@ -630,10 +714,43 @@ fn is_junk_font_name(name: &str) -> bool {
     if name.len() >= 8 && name.chars().all(|c| c.is_ascii_hexdigit()) {
         return true;
     }
+    if name
+        .split_whitespace()
+        .next()
+        .is_some_and(|part| part.len() >= 8 && part.chars().all(|c| c.is_ascii_hexdigit()))
+    {
+        return true;
+    }
     // Too short to be a real font name
     if name.len() < 3 {
         return true;
     }
+    // Third-party rendering libraries and icon fonts overwhelm app shells
+    // like claude.com/openai.com but are not product typography.
+    if name.contains("katex")
+        || name.contains("open dyslexic")
+        || name.contains("opendyslexic")
+        || name.contains("math")
+        || name.contains("fraktur")
+        || name.contains("caligraphic")
+        || name.contains("typewriter")
+        || name.contains("glyph")
+        || name.contains("icon")
+        || name.contains("emoji")
+        || name.contains("symbol")
+    {
+        return true;
+    }
+    // Malformed shorthand leftovers and CSS-internal values.
+    if name.contains(')')
+        || name.contains('!')
+        || name.contains('/')
+        || name.contains("px ")
+        || name.contains("rem ")
+        || name.contains("em ")
+    {
+        return true;
+    }
     // Starts with underscore or double dash (CSS internals)
     if name.starts_with('_') || name.starts_with("--") {
         return true;
@@ -662,28 +779,11 @@ fn split_font_families(value: &str) -> Vec<String> {
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 fn find_logo(doc: &Html, base_url: Option<&Url>) -> Option<String> {
-    // Strategy 1: <img> with class/id containing "logo"
-    for el in doc.select(selector!("img")) {
-        let class = el.value().attr("class").unwrap_or("");
-        let id = el.value().attr("id").unwrap_or("");
-        if (contains_ci(class, "logo") || contains_ci(id, "logo"))
-            && let Some(src) = el.value().attr("src")
-        {
-            return Some(resolve_url(src, base_url));
-        }
+    if let Some(url) = find_logo_in_scope(doc, base_url, "header img, nav img") {
+        return Some(url);
     }
 
-    // Strategy 2: <img> with alt containing "logo"
-    for el in doc.select(selector!("img")) {
-        let alt = el.value().attr("alt").unwrap_or("");
-        if contains_ci(alt, "logo")
-            && let Some(src) = el.value().attr("src")
-        {
-            return Some(resolve_url(src, base_url));
-        }
-    }
-
-    // Strategy 3: <a href="/"> containing an <img> (homepage link with image)
+    // Strategy 2: <a href="/"> containing an <img> (homepage link with image)
     for el in doc.select(selector!("a[href='/'] img, a[href] img")) {
         // Check if parent <a> links to homepage
         if let Some(parent) = el.parent().and_then(|p| p.value().as_element()) {
@@ -699,6 +799,20 @@ fn find_logo(doc: &Html, base_url: Option<&Url>) -> Option<String> {
     None
 }
 
+fn find_logo_in_scope(doc: &Html, base_url: Option<&Url>, selector_str: &str) -> Option<String> {
+    let selector = Selector::parse(selector_str).ok()?;
+    for el in doc.select(&selector) {
+        let class = el.value().attr("class").unwrap_or("");
+        let id = el.value().attr("id").unwrap_or("");
+        let alt = el.value().attr("alt").unwrap_or("");
+        let src = el.value().attr("src")?;
+        if contains_ci(class, "logo") || contains_ci(id, "logo") || contains_ci(alt, "logo") {
+            return Some(resolve_url(src, base_url));
+        }
+    }
+    None
+}
+
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 // Favicon detection
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@@ -829,8 +943,9 @@ fn find_all_logos(doc: &Html, base_url: Option<&Url>) -> Vec<LogoVariant> {
         }
     }
 
-    // Logo images (class/id/alt containing "logo")
-    for el in doc.select(selector!("img")) {
+    // Logo images in header/nav first. Product/customer logo grids elsewhere
+    // are common on SaaS sites and should not become the primary brand signal.
+    for el in doc.select(selector!("header img, nav img")) {
         let class = el.value().attr("class").unwrap_or("");
         let id = el.value().attr("id").unwrap_or("");
         let alt = el.value().attr("alt").unwrap_or("");
@@ -997,6 +1112,25 @@ mod tests {
         assert!(hexes.contains(&"#3498DB"), "brand color should survive");
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn test_google_oauth_palette_does_not_overwhelm_non_google_brand() {
+        let html = r#"<html><head>
+            <meta property="og:site_name" content="Claude">
+            <style>
+                .google-button { color: #1A73E8; background: #4285F4; border-color: #5F6368; }
+                .google-icon { color: #202124; background: #E8EAED; }
+                :root { --brand-accent: #D97757; --brand-text: #DC6038; }
+            </style>
+        </head><body></body></html>"#;
+
+        let brand = extract_brand(html, None);
+        let hexes: Vec<&str> = brand.colors.iter().map(|c| c.hex.as_str()).collect();
+        assert!(!hexes.contains(&"#1A73E8"));
+        assert!(!hexes.contains(&"#4285F4"));
+        assert!(hexes.contains(&"#D97757"));
+        assert!(hexes.contains(&"#DC6038"));
+    }
+
     #[test]
     fn test_font_extraction() {
         let html = r#"<html><head><style>
@@ -1040,6 +1174,24 @@ mod tests {
         );
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn test_font_shorthand_is_normalized_and_noise_filtered() {
+        let html = r#"<html><head><style>
+            body { font: 500 12px "Roboto", Arial, sans-serif; }
+            h1 { font: 1.21em/1.2 KaTeX_Main; }
+            .hash { font-family: "9d9927955a95a20d s", "OpenAI Sans", sans-serif; }
+            .bad { font-family: "Noto Color Emoji\")", "Segoe UI Emoji"; }
+        </style></head><body></body></html>"#;
+
+        let brand = extract_brand(html, None);
+        assert!(brand.fonts.contains(&"Roboto".to_string()));
+        assert!(brand.fonts.contains(&"OpenAI Sans".to_string()));
+        assert!(!brand.fonts.iter().any(|f| f.contains("12px")));
+        assert!(!brand.fonts.iter().any(|f| f.contains("KaTeX")));
+        assert!(!brand.fonts.iter().any(|f| f.contains("Emoji")));
+        assert!(!brand.fonts.iter().any(|f| f.contains("9d9927955a95a20d")));
+    }
+
     #[test]
     fn test_logo_by_class() {
         let html = r#"<html><body>
@@ -1086,6 +1238,42 @@ mod tests {
         );
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn test_body_logo_grid_does_not_become_primary_brand_logo() {
+        let html = r#"<html><body>
+            <main>
+                <section class="customers">
+                    <img class="customer-logo" src="/logos/runway.svg" alt="Runway logo">
+                    <img class="customer-logo" src="/logos/zapier.svg" alt="Zapier logo">
+                </section>
+            </main>
+        </body></html>"#;
+
+        let brand = extract_brand(html, Some("https://example.com"));
+        assert_eq!(brand.logo_url, None);
+        assert!(brand.logos.is_empty());
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn test_header_logo_is_still_primary_logo() {
+        let html = r#"<html><body>
+            <header>
+                <img class="brand-logo" src="/logo.svg" alt="Acme logo">
+            </header>
+            <main>
+                <img class="customer-logo" src="/logos/customer.svg" alt="Customer logo">
+            </main>
+        </body></html>"#;
+
+        let brand = extract_brand(html, Some("https://example.com"));
+        assert_eq!(
+            brand.logo_url.as_deref(),
+            Some("https://example.com/logo.svg")
+        );
+        assert_eq!(brand.logos.len(), 1);
+        assert_eq!(brand.logos[0].url, "https://example.com/logo.svg");
+    }
+
     #[test]
     fn test_favicon() {
         let html = r#"<html><head>
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/endpoints.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/endpoints.rs
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..21c5280
--- /dev/null
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/endpoints.rs
@@ -0,0 +1,515 @@
+//! API/endpoint surface discovery from HTML + JS bundle text.
+//!
+//! Pure and zero-network: callers fetch the page and its `<script src>`
+//! bundles, then hand the raw text here. We surface API paths, absolute
+//! API URLs, GraphQL and WebSocket endpoints that live in inline scripts
+//! and bundles — the surface a sitemap/`map` can never see.
+//!
+//! Heuristic by design: regex over string literals, not JS dataflow.
+//! High-signal patterns only; bounded for DoS safety.
+
+use once_cell::sync::Lazy;
+use regex::Regex;
+use scraper::{Html, Selector};
+use std::collections::BTreeSet;
+use url::Url;
+
+/// Hard caps so a hostile/huge bundle set can't blow up CPU or memory.
+const MAX_SCAN_BYTES: usize = 8 * 1024 * 1024;
+const MAX_ENDPOINTS: usize = 2000;
+/// Cap on `<script src>` URLs returned for the caller to fetch.
+const MAX_SCRIPT_SRCS: usize = 40;
+
+#[derive(Debug, Clone, Copy, PartialEq, Eq, PartialOrd, Ord, serde::Serialize)]
+#[serde(rename_all = "snake_case")]
+pub enum EndpointKind {
+    RelativePath,
+    AbsoluteUrl,
+    GraphQl,
+    WebSocket,
+}
+
+#[derive(Debug, Clone, serde::Serialize)]
+pub struct DiscoveredEndpoint {
+    pub value: String,
+    pub kind: EndpointKind,
+    pub first_party: bool,
+    /// `"inline"` or the bundle URL the match came from.
+    pub source: String,
+}
+
+#[derive(Debug, Default, serde::Serialize)]
+pub struct EndpointReport {
+    pub endpoints: Vec<DiscoveredEndpoint>,
+    /// Distinct hosts seen across absolute URLs (first- and third-party).
+    pub hosts: Vec<String>,
+    pub bundles_scanned: usize,
+    /// True if a cap was hit and results may be incomplete.
+    pub truncated: bool,
+}
+
+// Quoted relative path that looks API-ish. Bounded quantifiers; the `regex`
+// crate is linear-time (RE2) so this cannot catastrophically backtrack.
+static RE_REL_PATH: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| {
+    Regex::new(
+        r#"["'`](/[A-Za-z0-9_\-./]{0,200}?(?:api|graphql|gql|/v[0-9]|/rest|/gateway|/internal|/discovery)[A-Za-z0-9_\-./]{0,200})["'`]"#,
+    )
+    .expect("RE_REL_PATH")
+});
+
+static RE_ABS_URL: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| {
+    Regex::new(r#"https?://[A-Za-z0-9.\-]{1,253}(?:/[A-Za-z0-9_\-./%]{0,400})?"#)
+        .expect("RE_ABS_URL")
+});
+
+static RE_WS: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| {
+    Regex::new(r#"wss?://[A-Za-z0-9.\-]{1,253}(?:/[A-Za-z0-9_\-./%]{0,256})?"#).expect("RE_WS")
+});
+
+static SCRIPT_SEL: Lazy<Selector> = Lazy::new(|| Selector::parse("script").expect("script sel"));
+
+/// Common multi-label public suffixes so `ticketmaster.co.uk` resolves to
+/// `ticketmaster.co.uk` (not `co.uk`). Not a full PSL — pragmatic v1.
+const SUFFIX2: &[&str] = &[
+    "co.uk", "org.uk", "gov.uk", "ac.uk", "me.uk", "com.au", "net.au", "org.au", "co.jp", "co.nz",
+    "co.za", "com.br", "com.mx", "com.sg", "co.in", "co.kr", "com.tr", "com.cn",
+];
+
+fn registrable_domain(host: &str) -> String {
+    let host = host.trim_end_matches('.').to_ascii_lowercase();
+    let labels: Vec<&str> = host.split('.').collect();
+    if labels.len() < 2 {
+        return host;
+    }
+    let last2 = labels[labels.len() - 2..].join(".");
+    if SUFFIX2.contains(&last2.as_str()) && labels.len() >= 3 {
+        labels[labels.len() - 3..].join(".")
+    } else {
+        last2
+    }
+}
+
+fn is_first_party(candidate_host: &str, base_reg: &str) -> bool {
+    let ch = candidate_host.to_ascii_lowercase();
+    ch == base_reg || ch.ends_with(&format!(".{base_reg}"))
+}
+
+/// Registrable domains that are spec/schema/example noise, never real API
+/// surface (minified JSON-Schema/`schema.org` refs show up constantly).
+const NOISE_HOSTS: &[&str] = &[
+    "schema.org",
+    "json-schema.org",
+    "w3.org",
+    "example.com",
+    "example.org",
+    "example.net",
+    "localhost",
+];
+
+/// A host worth reporting: multi-label with an alphabetic TLD (>=2 chars).
+/// Rejects minifier garbage like `http://f` / `http://n` and UUID-ish
+/// single labels that the URL regex otherwise picks up.
+fn is_valid_host(host: &str) -> bool {
+    let h = host.trim_end_matches('.');
+    let labels: Vec<&str> = h.split('.').collect();
+    if labels.len() < 2 || labels.iter().any(|l| l.is_empty()) {
+        return false;
+    }
+    let tld = labels[labels.len() - 1];
+    tld.len() >= 2 && tld.chars().all(|c| c.is_ascii_alphabetic())
+}
+
+/// Bare/low-signal relative paths that are just the prefix, not an endpoint
+/// (e.g. `/api`, `/api/`, `/`). `/graphql`, `/gql`, `/api/x` are kept.
+fn is_noise_path(p: &str) -> bool {
+    let t = p.trim_end_matches('/');
+    t.len() < 4 || matches!(t, "/api" | "/rest")
+}
+
+/// Resolved absolute `<script src>` URLs (http/https only), deduped, capped.
+/// Inline scripts have no `src` and are scanned via [`extract_endpoints`].
+pub fn script_srcs(html: &str, base_url: &str) -> Vec<String> {
+    let base = Url::parse(base_url).ok();
+    let doc = Html::parse_document(html);
+    let mut seen = BTreeSet::new();
+    let mut out = Vec::new();
+    for el in doc.select(&SCRIPT_SEL) {
+        if out.len() >= MAX_SCRIPT_SRCS {
+            break;
+        }
+        let Some(src) = el.value().attr("src") else {
+            continue;
+        };
+        let resolved = match Url::parse(src) {
+            Ok(u) => Some(u),
+            Err(_) => base.as_ref().and_then(|b| b.join(src).ok()),
+        };
+        let Some(u) = resolved else {
+            continue;
+        };
+        if (u.scheme() == "http" || u.scheme() == "https") && seen.insert(u.to_string()) {
+            out.push(u.to_string());
+        }
+    }
+    out
+}
+
+/// Extract endpoints from inline HTML scripts plus pre-fetched JS bundles.
+/// `bundles` is `(bundle_url, bundle_text)`.
+pub fn extract_endpoints(
+    html: &str,
+    base_url: &str,
+    bundles: &[(String, String)],
+) -> EndpointReport {
+    let base_reg = Url::parse(base_url)
+        .ok()
+        .and_then(|u| u.host_str().map(registrable_domain))
+        .unwrap_or_default();
+
+    let mut endpoints: Vec<DiscoveredEndpoint> = Vec::new();
+    let mut seen: BTreeSet<(String, String)> = BTreeSet::new();
+    let mut hosts: BTreeSet<String> = BTreeSet::new();
+    let mut budget = MAX_SCAN_BYTES;
+    let mut truncated = false;
+
+    let push = |value: String,
+                kind: EndpointKind,
+                source: &str,
+                endpoints: &mut Vec<DiscoveredEndpoint>,
+                seen: &mut BTreeSet<(String, String)>,
+                hosts: &mut BTreeSet<String>|
+     -> bool {
+        if endpoints.len() >= MAX_ENDPOINTS {
+            return false;
+        }
+        let first_party = match Url::parse(&value) {
+            Ok(u) => {
+                let Some(h) = u.host_str() else {
+                    return true;
+                };
+                if !is_valid_host(h) {
+                    return true; // minifier garbage host
+                }
+                if NOISE_HOSTS.contains(&registrable_domain(h).as_str()) {
+                    return true; // schema.org / json-schema.org / example.*
+                }
+                // Absolute URL with no real path is an origin/site link,
+                // not an API endpoint (drops the page's own URL too).
+                let path = u.path();
+                if path.is_empty() || path == "/" {
+                    return true;
+                }
+                hosts.insert(h.to_ascii_lowercase());
+                is_first_party(h, &base_reg)
+            }
+            // Relative path: same origin as the page by definition.
+            Err(_) => {
+                if is_noise_path(&value) {
+                    return true; // bare /api, /, ultra-short
+                }
+                true
+            }
+        };
+        if seen.insert((value.clone(), source.to_string())) {
+            endpoints.push(DiscoveredEndpoint {
+                value,
+                kind,
+                first_party,
+                source: source.to_string(),
+            });
+        }
+        true
+    };
+
+    let scan = |text: &str,
+                source: &str,
+                endpoints: &mut Vec<DiscoveredEndpoint>,
+                seen: &mut BTreeSet<(String, String)>,
+                hosts: &mut BTreeSet<String>,
+                budget: &mut usize,
+                truncated: &mut bool| {
+        if *budget == 0 {
+            return;
+        }
+        let slice = if text.len() > *budget {
+            *truncated = true;
+            &text[..*budget]
+        } else {
+            text
+        };
+        *budget -= slice.len();
+
+        for c in RE_REL_PATH.captures_iter(slice) {
+            if let Some(m) = c.get(1) {
+                let v = m.as_str().to_string();
+                let kind = if v.contains("graphql") || v.contains("/gql") {
+                    EndpointKind::GraphQl
+                } else {
+                    EndpointKind::RelativePath
+                };
+                if !push(v, kind, source, endpoints, seen, hosts) {
+                    *truncated = true;
+                    return;
+                }
+            }
+        }
+        for m in RE_WS.find_iter(slice) {
+            if !push(
+                m.as_str().to_string(),
+                EndpointKind::WebSocket,
+                source,
+                endpoints,
+                seen,
+                hosts,
+            ) {
+                *truncated = true;
+                return;
+            }
+        }
+        for m in RE_ABS_URL.find_iter(slice) {
+            let v = m.as_str().to_string();
+            // Skip obvious static assets — we want API surface, not CDN files.
+            let lower = v.to_ascii_lowercase();
+            if lower.ends_with(".js")
+                || lower.ends_with(".css")
+                || lower.ends_with(".png")
+                || lower.ends_with(".jpg")
+                || lower.ends_with(".svg")
+                || lower.ends_with(".woff2")
+            {
+                // still record the host for visibility
+                if let Some(h) = Url::parse(&v)
+                    .ok()
+                    .and_then(|u| u.host_str().map(str::to_string))
+                {
+                    hosts.insert(h.to_ascii_lowercase());
+                }
+                continue;
+            }
+            let kind = if lower.contains("graphql") || lower.contains("/gql") {
+                EndpointKind::GraphQl
+            } else {
+                EndpointKind::AbsoluteUrl
+            };
+            if !push(v, kind, source, endpoints, seen, hosts) {
+                *truncated = true;
+                return;
+            }
+        }
+    };
+
+    // Inline scripts.
+    let doc = Html::parse_document(html);
+    let mut inline = String::new();
+    for el in doc.select(&SCRIPT_SEL) {
+        if el.value().attr("src").is_none() {
+            inline.push_str(&el.text().collect::<String>());
+            inline.push('\n');
+        }
+    }
+    scan(
+        &inline,
+        "inline",
+        &mut endpoints,
+        &mut seen,
+        &mut hosts,
+        &mut budget,
+        &mut truncated,
+    );
+
+    // Bundles.
+    let mut bundles_scanned = 0usize;
+    for (src, text) in bundles {
+        if budget == 0 {
+            truncated = true;
+            break;
+        }
+        bundles_scanned += 1;
+        scan(
+            text,
+            src,
+            &mut endpoints,
+            &mut seen,
+            &mut hosts,
+            &mut budget,
+            &mut truncated,
+        );
+    }
+
+    endpoints.sort_by(|a, b| (a.kind, &a.value, &a.source).cmp(&(b.kind, &b.value, &b.source)));
+
+    EndpointReport {
+        endpoints,
+        hosts: hosts.into_iter().collect(),
+        bundles_scanned,
+        truncated,
+    }
+}
+
+#[cfg(test)]
+mod tests {
+    use super::*;
+
+    #[test]
+    fn registrable_domain_handles_cc_tlds() {
+        assert_eq!(
+            registrable_domain("www.ticketmaster.co.uk"),
+            "ticketmaster.co.uk"
+        );
+        assert_eq!(
+            registrable_domain("api.ticketmaster.com"),
+            "ticketmaster.com"
+        );
+        assert_eq!(
+            registrable_domain("pubapi.ticketmaster.co.uk"),
+            "ticketmaster.co.uk"
+        );
+        assert_eq!(registrable_domain("localhost"), "localhost");
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn script_srcs_resolves_and_filters() {
+        let html = r#"<html><head>
+            <script src="/_next/static/chunks/main-abc.js"></script>
+            <script src="https://cdn.example.net/lib.js"></script>
+            <script>var inline = 1;</script>
+            <script src="data:text/javascript,1"></script>
+        </head></html>"#;
+        let srcs = script_srcs(html, "https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/");
+        assert!(srcs.contains(
+            &"https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/_next/static/chunks/main-abc.js".to_string()
+        ));
+        assert!(srcs.contains(&"https://cdn.example.net/lib.js".to_string()));
+        assert_eq!(srcs.len(), 2, "inline + data: ignored");
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn extracts_inline_and_bundle_endpoints_with_classification() {
+        let html = r#"<html><body>
+            <script>
+              var cfg = { search: "/api/search/events", suggest: "/api/search/search-suggest" };
+              fetch("/api/venue/info");
+            </script>
+            <script src="/app.js"></script>
+        </body></html>"#;
+        let bundles = vec![(
+            "https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/app.js".to_string(),
+            r#"
+              const GQL = "https://pubapi.ticketmaster.co.uk/graphql";
+              axios.post("https://services.ticketmaster.co.uk/discovery/v2/events");
+              new WebSocket("wss://live.ticketmaster.co.uk/socket");
+              const ga = "https://www.googletagservices.com/tag/js/gpt.js";
+              const img = "https://cdn.tmol.co/hero.png";
+            "#
+            .to_string(),
+        )];
+        let r = extract_endpoints(html, "https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/", &bundles);
+        let vals: Vec<&str> = r.endpoints.iter().map(|e| e.value.as_str()).collect();
+
+        assert!(vals.contains(&"/api/search/events"));
+        assert!(vals.contains(&"/api/search/search-suggest"));
+        assert!(vals.contains(&"/api/venue/info"));
+        assert!(vals.contains(&"https://pubapi.ticketmaster.co.uk/graphql"));
+        assert!(vals.contains(&"https://services.ticketmaster.co.uk/discovery/v2/events"));
+        assert!(vals.contains(&"wss://live.ticketmaster.co.uk/socket"));
+        // static .js asset is not an endpoint, but its host is recorded
+        assert!(!vals.contains(&"https://www.googletagservices.com/tag/js/gpt.js"));
+        assert!(r.hosts.iter().any(|h| h == "www.googletagservices.com"));
+
+        let gql = r
+            .endpoints
+            .iter()
+            .find(|e| e.value.contains("graphql"))
+            .unwrap();
+        assert_eq!(gql.kind, EndpointKind::GraphQl);
+        assert!(
+            gql.first_party,
+            "pubapi.ticketmaster.co.uk is first-party to .co.uk"
+        );
+
+        let third = r
+            .endpoints
+            .iter()
+            .find(|e| e.value.starts_with("/api/venue"));
+        assert!(third.unwrap().first_party, "relative path is same-origin");
+        assert_eq!(r.bundles_scanned, 1);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn third_party_absolute_is_flagged_not_first_party() {
+        let bundles = vec![(
+            "b".to_string(),
+            r#"x="https://api.stripe.com/v1/charges""#.to_string(),
+        )];
+        let r = extract_endpoints("<html></html>", "https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/", &bundles);
+        let e = r
+            .endpoints
+            .iter()
+            .find(|e| e.value.contains("stripe"))
+            .unwrap();
+        assert!(!e.first_party);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn caps_bound_pathological_input() {
+        // A huge blob of fake endpoints must not exceed MAX_ENDPOINTS and
+        // must return promptly (regex crate is linear-time).
+        let mut big = String::new();
+        for i in 0..50_000 {
+            big.push_str(&format!("\"/api/v1/item/{i}\" "));
+        }
+        let bundles = vec![("big".to_string(), big)];
+        let r = extract_endpoints("<html></html>", "https://x.com/", &bundles);
+        assert!(r.endpoints.len() <= MAX_ENDPOINTS);
+        assert!(r.truncated);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn empty_inputs_are_safe() {
+        let r = extract_endpoints("", "not a url", &[]);
+        assert!(r.endpoints.is_empty());
+        assert_eq!(r.bundles_scanned, 0);
+        assert!(!r.truncated);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn v1_1_noise_is_filtered() {
+        let bundles = vec![(
+            "b.js".to_string(),
+            r#"
+              "/api/search/events";
+              "/api"; "/api/";
+              "http://f"; "http://n/x";
+              "https://schema.org/Thing";
+              "http://json-schema.org/draft-07/schema";
+              "https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/";
+              "https://pubapi.ticketmaster.co.uk/discovery/v2/events";
+              "wss://live.ticketmaster.co.uk/socket";
+            "#
+            .to_string(),
+        )];
+        let r = extract_endpoints("<html></html>", "https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/", &bundles);
+        let vals: std::collections::BTreeSet<&str> =
+            r.endpoints.iter().map(|e| e.value.as_str()).collect();
+        assert!(vals.contains("/api/search/events"));
+        assert!(vals.contains("https://pubapi.ticketmaster.co.uk/discovery/v2/events"));
+        assert!(vals.contains("wss://live.ticketmaster.co.uk/socket"));
+        for junk in [
+            "/api",
+            "/api/",
+            "http://f",
+            "http://n/x",
+            "https://schema.org/Thing",
+            "http://json-schema.org/draft-07/schema",
+            "https://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/",
+        ] {
+            assert!(!vals.contains(junk), "noise leaked: {junk}");
+        }
+        assert!(
+            !r.hosts
+                .iter()
+                .any(|h| h == "f" || h == "n" || h == "schema.org")
+        );
+        assert!(r.hosts.iter().any(|h| h == "pubapi.ticketmaster.co.uk"));
+    }
+}
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/js_eval.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/js_eval.rs
index 213b1e5..e1fb2de 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/js_eval.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/js_eval.rs
@@ -9,10 +9,12 @@ use once_cell::sync::Lazy;
 use regex::Regex;
 use rquickjs::{Context, Runtime};
 use scraper::{Html, Selector};
+use std::time::{Duration, Instant};
 use tracing::debug;
 
 static SCRIPT_SELECTOR: Lazy<Selector> = Lazy::new(|| Selector::parse("script").unwrap());
 static HTML_TAG_RE: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| Regex::new(r"<[^>]+>").unwrap());
+const JS_EVAL_TIMEOUT: Duration = Duration::from_millis(250);
 
 /// A blob of data extracted from JS execution.
 pub struct JsDataBlob {
@@ -49,6 +51,8 @@ pub fn extract_js_data(html: &str) -> Vec<JsDataBlob> {
     let rt = Runtime::new().expect("QuickJS runtime creation failed");
     rt.set_memory_limit(64 * 1024 * 1024); // 64 MB
     rt.set_max_stack_size(1024 * 1024); // 1 MB
+    let deadline = Instant::now() + JS_EVAL_TIMEOUT;
+    rt.set_interrupt_handler(Some(Box::new(move || Instant::now() >= deadline)));
 
     let ctx = Context::full(&rt).expect("QuickJS context creation failed");
 
@@ -464,6 +468,8 @@ fn walk_rsc_tree(value: &serde_json::Value, out: &mut Vec<String>, depth: usize)
 
 #[cfg(test)]
 mod tests {
+    use std::time::{Duration, Instant};
+
     use super::*;
 
     #[test]
@@ -493,6 +499,29 @@ mod tests {
         );
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn js_eval_interrupts_infinite_loops() {
+        let html = r#"
+            <html>
+              <head>
+                <script>
+                  while (true) {}
+                </script>
+              </head>
+              <body>hello</body>
+            </html>
+        "#;
+
+        let start = Instant::now();
+        let blobs = extract_js_data(html);
+
+        assert!(blobs.is_empty());
+        assert!(
+            start.elapsed() < Duration::from_secs(2),
+            "QuickJS execution should be interrupted quickly"
+        );
+    }
+
     #[test]
     fn skips_external_and_module_scripts() {
         let html = r#"<html><body>
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/lib.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/lib.rs
index 80dbb5c..8cdfbbb 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/lib.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/lib.rs
@@ -7,15 +7,17 @@ pub(crate) mod data_island;
 /// Zero network dependencies — WASM-compatible by design.
 pub mod diff;
 pub mod domain;
+pub mod endpoints;
 pub mod error;
 pub mod extractor;
-#[cfg(feature = "quickjs")]
+#[cfg(all(feature = "quickjs", not(target_arch = "wasm32")))]
 pub mod js_eval;
 pub mod llm;
 pub mod markdown;
 pub mod metadata;
 #[allow(dead_code)]
 pub(crate) mod noise;
+pub mod reddit;
 pub mod structured_data;
 pub mod types;
 pub mod youtube;
@@ -46,9 +48,13 @@ pub fn extract(html: &str, url: Option<&str>) -> Result<ExtractionResult, Extrac
 /// `url`     — optional source URL, used for resolving relative links and domain detection
 /// `options` — controls include/exclude selectors, main content mode, and raw HTML output
 ///
-/// Spawns extraction on a thread with an 8 MB stack to handle deeply nested
-/// HTML (e.g., Express.co.uk live blogs) without overflowing the default 1-2 MB
-/// main-thread stack on Windows.
+/// On native targets, spawns extraction on a thread with an 8 MB stack to
+/// handle deeply nested HTML (e.g., Express.co.uk live blogs) without
+/// overflowing the default 1-2 MB main-thread stack on Windows.
+///
+/// On `wasm32`, threads are unavailable (`std::thread::spawn` panics at
+/// runtime), so extraction runs inline on the caller's stack.
+#[cfg(not(target_arch = "wasm32"))]
 pub fn extract_with_options(
     html: &str,
     url: Option<&str>,
@@ -70,6 +76,16 @@ pub fn extract_with_options(
         .unwrap_or(Err(ExtractError::NoContent))
 }
 
+/// WASM has no threads; run extraction directly on the caller's stack.
+#[cfg(target_arch = "wasm32")]
+pub fn extract_with_options(
+    html: &str,
+    url: Option<&str>,
+    options: &ExtractionOptions,
+) -> Result<ExtractionResult, ExtractError> {
+    extract_with_options_inner(html, url, options)
+}
+
 fn extract_with_options_inner(
     html: &str,
     url: Option<&str>,
@@ -79,6 +95,24 @@ fn extract_with_options_inner(
         return Err(ExtractError::NoContent);
     }
 
+    // Reddit fast path: parse old.reddit.com HTML directly.
+    // The fetch layer rewrites all Reddit hosts to old.reddit.com before
+    // calling extract, so we always get stable server-rendered HTML here.
+    if let Some(u) = url
+        && reddit::is_reddit_url(u)
+    {
+        if let Some(result) = reddit::try_extract(html, u) {
+            return Ok(result);
+        }
+        // A recognised comment thread that we couldn't parse (Reddit markup
+        // change, or a block/challenge page) — don't fall through to generic
+        // extraction, which would emit Reddit nav/sidebar chrome. Listings
+        // and profiles (no `/comments/`) intentionally fall through below.
+        if u.contains("/comments/") {
+            return Err(ExtractError::NoContent);
+        }
+    }
+
     // YouTube fast path: if the URL is a YouTube video page, try extracting
     // structured metadata from ytInitialPlayerResponse before DOM scoring.
     // This gives LLMs a clean, structured view of video metadata.
@@ -187,7 +221,7 @@ fn extract_with_options_inner(
     // QuickJS: execute inline <script> tags to capture JS-assigned data blobs
     // (e.g., window.__PRELOADED_STATE__, self.__next_f). This supplements the
     // static JSON data island extraction above with runtime-evaluated data.
-    #[cfg(feature = "quickjs")]
+    #[cfg(all(feature = "quickjs", not(target_arch = "wasm32")))]
     {
         let blobs = js_eval::extract_js_data(html);
         if !blobs.is_empty() {
@@ -603,4 +637,36 @@ mod tests {
             "Should extract content from deep nesting"
         );
     }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn wasm_direct_call_path_extracts_content() {
+        // On wasm32 `extract_with_options` runs `extract_with_options_inner`
+        // inline (no thread spawn). Exercise that exact entry point here so
+        // the WASM path stays covered on native CI, and assert it produces
+        // the same content as the public threaded entry point.
+        let html = r#"
+        <html lang="en">
+        <head><title>WASM Path</title></head>
+        <body><article><h1>Heading</h1><p>WASM-safe extraction body content.</p></article></body>
+        </html>"#;
+        let opts = ExtractionOptions::default();
+
+        let inner = extract_with_options_inner(html, Some("https://example.com"), &opts)
+            .expect("inner extraction (wasm path) should succeed");
+        assert!(
+            inner
+                .content
+                .markdown
+                .contains("WASM-safe extraction body content"),
+            "wasm direct-call path should extract body, got: {}",
+            inner.content.markdown
+        );
+
+        let threaded = extract_with_options(html, Some("https://example.com"), &opts)
+            .expect("threaded extraction should succeed");
+        assert_eq!(
+            inner.content.markdown, threaded.content.markdown,
+            "wasm path and threaded path must produce identical content"
+        );
+    }
 }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/body.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/body.rs
index 5311121..1e3c939 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/body.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/body.rs
@@ -29,6 +29,9 @@ pub(crate) fn process_body(markdown: &str) -> ProcessedBody {
     // 0c. Strip leaked JavaScript (framework hydration, self.__wrap_n, etc.)
     let text = cleanup::strip_leaked_js(&text);
 
+    // 0c2. Strip a11y link chrome ("opens new tab", external link hints)
+    let text = cleanup::strip_a11y_link_chrome(&text);
+
     // 0d. Collapse spaced-out text (CSS animation artifacts like "S t a r t")
     // Must run before any dedup -- spaced text confuses word-based dedup.
     let text = cleanup::collapse_spaced_text(&text);
@@ -70,7 +73,15 @@ pub(crate) fn process_body(markdown: &str) -> ProcessedBody {
     // d. Extract links, replace inline `[text](url)` with just `text`
     let (text, extracted_links) = links::extract_and_strip_links(&text);
 
-    // d2. Collapse repeated adjacent phrases on the same line
+    // d1. Strip bare-integer paragraphs after link extraction, so
+    // `[0](#comments)` collapses to `0` before the paragraph-aware check.
+    let text = cleanup::strip_bare_number_lines(&text);
+
+    // d2. Run UI-control stripping again after link extraction. Lines like
+    // `[0](url) Next` become `0 Next`, which is pure pagination chrome.
+    let text = cleanup::strip_ui_control_text(&text);
+
+    // d3. Collapse repeated adjacent phrases on the same line
     // (responsive variants: "Read more Read more Read more" -> "Read more")
     let text = dedup_repeated_phrases(&text);
 
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/cleanup.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/cleanup.rs
index c8e14ed..e9073b5 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/cleanup.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/cleanup.rs
@@ -146,6 +146,45 @@ pub(crate) fn strip_leaked_js(input: &str) -> String {
     out
 }
 
+// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
+// Accessibility link chrome ("opens new tab", "external link")
+// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
+
+/// Strip screen-reader-only link chrome that bleeds into rendered text.
+///
+/// Sites like Reuters wrap external/new-window links with hidden spans
+/// like `<span class="visually-hidden">, opens new tab</span>`. The noise
+/// filter can't reliably catch these (no consistent class hook across
+/// sites), so they end up duplicated all over the body text. This is a
+/// targeted text-level scrub of the most common phrasings.
+pub(crate) fn strip_a11y_link_chrome(input: &str) -> String {
+    static A11Y_PATTERN: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| {
+        Regex::new(
+            r"(?i)(?:\s*,\s*(?:opens (?:in )?(?:a )?new (?:tab|window)|opens external (?:link|website)|external link)\b\.?|\s+\((?:opens (?:in )?(?:a )?new (?:tab|window)|opens external (?:link|website)|external link)\)\.?|\s+external link\b\.?$)",
+        )
+        .unwrap()
+    });
+
+    let mut out = String::with_capacity(input.len());
+    let mut in_code_fence = false;
+    for (i, line) in input.lines().enumerate() {
+        if i > 0 {
+            out.push('\n');
+        }
+        if line.trim().starts_with("```") {
+            in_code_fence = !in_code_fence;
+            out.push_str(line);
+            continue;
+        }
+        if in_code_fence {
+            out.push_str(line);
+            continue;
+        }
+        out.push_str(&A11Y_PATTERN.replace_all(line, ""));
+    }
+    out
+}
+
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 // Spaced-out text collapsing (CSS animation artifacts)
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@@ -346,16 +385,33 @@ pub(crate) fn is_ui_control_line(line: &str) -> bool {
         return false;
     }
 
-    // Split by whitespace: every token must be a known UI control
+    // Split by whitespace: every token must be a known UI control, with short
+    // numbers allowed only when paired with real pagination chrome.
     let tokens: Vec<&str> = trimmed.split_whitespace().collect();
     if tokens.is_empty() {
         return false;
     }
-    tokens.iter().all(|t| is_ui_control_token(t))
+
+    let mut has_named_control = false;
+    for token in tokens {
+        if is_bare_short_integer(token) {
+            continue;
+        }
+        if is_ui_control_token(token) {
+            has_named_control = true;
+            continue;
+        }
+        return false;
+    }
+
+    has_named_control
 }
 
 /// Known UI control tokens from Material Icons ligatures, icon fonts, and
 /// common navigation elements that leak into text extraction.
+///
+/// Match is case-insensitive: `Next`, `next`, and `NEXT` are all treated as
+/// pagination chrome when alone on a line.
 fn is_ui_control_token(token: &str) -> bool {
     const UI_CONTROLS: &[&str] = &[
         // Material Icons ligatures
@@ -389,6 +445,12 @@ fn is_ui_control_token(token: &str) -> bool {
         "search",
         "menu",
         "share",
+        // Pagination chrome left over from rendered "Next | Previous" links.
+        "next",
+        "previous",
+        "prev",
+        "older",
+        "newer",
         // Arrow/nav characters
         "\u{2190}",
         "\u{2192}",
@@ -405,7 +467,56 @@ fn is_ui_control_token(token: &str) -> bool {
         "\u{00BB}",
         "\u{00AB}",
     ];
-    UI_CONTROLS.contains(&token)
+    let lowered = token.to_ascii_lowercase();
+    UI_CONTROLS.contains(&lowered.as_str())
+}
+
+/// Remove lines that are a bare short integer alone in their paragraph.
+///
+/// News index pages often render comment counts (`0`, `42`) and pagination
+/// page numbers (`1`, `2`) as standalone paragraphs after each article. These
+/// add zero signal and confuse downstream readers, but they are real numbers
+/// not control tokens, so [`strip_ui_control_text`] does not catch them.
+///
+/// To stay safe, we only drop a line if both conditions hold:
+/// 1. The trimmed line is a non-negative integer <= 9999.
+/// 2. The line is alone in its paragraph, surrounded by blank lines or edges.
+pub(crate) fn strip_bare_number_lines(input: &str) -> String {
+    let lines: Vec<&str> = input.lines().collect();
+    let mut out: Vec<&str> = Vec::with_capacity(lines.len());
+    let mut in_code = false;
+
+    for (i, line) in lines.iter().enumerate() {
+        let trimmed = line.trim();
+        if trimmed.starts_with("```") {
+            in_code = !in_code;
+            out.push(line);
+            continue;
+        }
+        if in_code {
+            out.push(line);
+            continue;
+        }
+        if is_bare_short_integer(trimmed) && is_isolated_in_paragraph(&lines, i) {
+            continue;
+        }
+        out.push(line);
+    }
+
+    out.join("\n")
+}
+
+fn is_bare_short_integer(s: &str) -> bool {
+    if s.is_empty() || s.len() > 4 {
+        return false;
+    }
+    s.chars().all(|c| c.is_ascii_digit())
+}
+
+fn is_isolated_in_paragraph(lines: &[&str], i: usize) -> bool {
+    let prev_blank = i == 0 || lines[i - 1].trim().is_empty();
+    let next_blank = i + 1 == lines.len() || lines[i + 1].trim().is_empty();
+    prev_blank && next_blank
 }
 
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@@ -1119,6 +1230,37 @@ mod tests {
         assert_eq!(strip_ui_control_text(input), "Hello\nWorld");
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn ui_control_strips_pagination_with_comment_count() {
+        assert!(is_ui_control_line("0 Next"));
+        assert!(is_ui_control_line("12 PREVIOUS"));
+        assert_eq!(strip_ui_control_text("Story\n0 Next\nMore"), "Story\nMore");
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn ui_control_keeps_bare_numbers_for_context() {
+        assert!(!is_ui_control_line("2026"));
+        assert_eq!(
+            strip_ui_control_text("Revenue\n2026\nReport"),
+            "Revenue\n2026\nReport"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn bare_number_lines_strip_isolated_counts() {
+        let input = "Article title\n\n0\n\nNext article";
+        assert_eq!(
+            strip_bare_number_lines(input),
+            "Article title\n\n\nNext article"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn bare_number_lines_keep_lists_and_code() {
+        let input = "- 1\n\n1.\n\n```\n0\n```\n\nReal text";
+        assert_eq!(strip_bare_number_lines(input), input);
+    }
+
     // -- Long alt-text descriptions --
 
     #[test]
@@ -1356,4 +1498,48 @@ mod tests {
         let input = "```\nImage of something in code\n```";
         assert_eq!(strip_alt_text_noise(input), input);
     }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn a11y_strips_opens_new_tab() {
+        let input = "Download the App, opens new tab and Subscribe, opens new tab.";
+        let out = strip_a11y_link_chrome(input);
+        assert!(!out.to_lowercase().contains("opens new tab"), "leak: {out}");
+        assert!(out.contains("Download the App"));
+        assert!(out.contains("Subscribe"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn a11y_strips_external_link_variants() {
+        let cases = [
+            ("Visit our docs, opens external link", "Visit our docs"),
+            ("Click here, opens in a new window.", "Click here"),
+            ("More info external link", "More info"),
+        ];
+        for (input, expected_prefix) in cases {
+            let out = strip_a11y_link_chrome(input);
+            assert!(
+                out.starts_with(expected_prefix),
+                "input={input:?} got={out:?}"
+            );
+            assert!(!out.to_lowercase().contains("opens"), "leak: {out}");
+        }
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn a11y_preserves_code_blocks() {
+        let input = "```\nopens new tab is a function\n```\nDownload, opens new tab";
+        let out = strip_a11y_link_chrome(input);
+        assert!(
+            out.contains("opens new tab is a function"),
+            "code stripped: {out}"
+        );
+        // Outside the fence, the chrome is removed.
+        assert!(!out.to_lowercase().contains("download, opens new tab"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn a11y_preserves_external_link_prose() {
+        let input = "Researchers found an external link between the two incidents.";
+        assert_eq!(strip_a11y_link_chrome(input), input);
+    }
 }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/links.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/links.rs
index 0656aac..d709951 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/links.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/links.rs
@@ -69,6 +69,18 @@ fn is_noise_link(text: &str, href: &str) -> bool {
         return true;
     }
 
+    // Bare integer labels are usually comment counts, vote counts, or page
+    // numbers. The label alone carries no useful link context for an LLM.
+    if !text.is_empty() && text.len() <= 4 && text.chars().all(|c| c.is_ascii_digit()) {
+        return true;
+    }
+
+    // In-page comment/discussion fragments that survived the bare-fragment
+    // check because the href is a full URL with a comment fragment.
+    if href.contains("#comment-stream") || href.contains("#comments") || href.contains("#disqus") {
+        return true;
+    }
+
     // Internal user profile / action URLs (HN-style)
     if href.contains("/user?id=")
         || href.contains("/hide?id=")
@@ -88,10 +100,19 @@ fn is_noise_link(text: &str, href: &str) -> bool {
 static MD_MARKERS_RE: Lazy<Regex> =
     Lazy::new(|| Regex::new(r"#{1,6}\s+|\*{1,2}|_{1,2}|`").unwrap());
 
+static A11Y_LABEL_RE: Lazy<Regex> = Lazy::new(|| {
+    Regex::new(
+        r"(?i)(?:\s*,?\s*(?:opens (?:in )?(?:a )?new (?:tab|window)|opens external (?:link|website))\b\.?|\s*,\s*external link\b\.?|\s+external link\b\.?$)",
+    )
+    .unwrap()
+});
+
 /// Clean a link label: strip markdown, dedup repeated phrases, truncate.
 pub(crate) fn clean_link_label(raw: &str) -> String {
     // Strip markdown markers
     let label = MD_MARKERS_RE.replace_all(raw, "").to_string();
+    // Strip a11y link chrome ("opens new tab", etc.)
+    let label = A11Y_LABEL_RE.replace_all(&label, "").to_string();
     let label = label.split_whitespace().collect::<Vec<_>>().join(" ");
 
     // Dedup repeated phrases in label
@@ -181,4 +202,20 @@ mod tests {
         assert!(is_noise_link("user", "https://hn.com/user?id=foo"));
         assert!(!is_noise_link("Rust docs", "https://rust-lang.org"));
     }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn link_label_preserves_external_link_prose() {
+        assert_eq!(
+            clean_link_label("Research found an external link between incidents"),
+            "Research found an external link between incidents"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn link_label_strips_terminal_external_link_chrome() {
+        assert_eq!(
+            clean_link_label("Reuters story external link"),
+            "Reuters story"
+        );
+    }
 }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/mod.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/mod.rs
index 126558f..0282c55 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/mod.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/llm/mod.rs
@@ -46,15 +46,119 @@ pub fn to_llm_text(result: &ExtractionResult, url: Option<&str>) -> String {
     }
 
     // -- 4. Structured data (NEXT_DATA, SvelteKit, JSON-LD) --
-    if !result.structured_data.is_empty() {
-        out.push_str("\n\n## Structured Data\n\n```json\n");
-        out.push_str(&serde_json::to_string_pretty(&result.structured_data).unwrap_or_default());
-        out.push_str("\n```");
+    // Only emit useful items: Schema.org records with a meaningful @type,
+    // and only if the total serialized size stays under a budget. Framework
+    // hydration blobs (Next.js pageProps full of ad-targeting flags, build
+    // IDs, schedule paths) explode to hundreds of KB and drown the LLM in
+    // noise — drop them rather than ship them.
+    let mut useful: Vec<_> = result
+        .structured_data
+        .iter()
+        .filter(|v| is_useful_structured_data(v))
+        .cloned()
+        .collect();
+    for value in &mut useful {
+        scrub_body_fields(value, 0);
+    }
+    if !useful.is_empty() {
+        let serialized = serde_json::to_string_pretty(&useful).unwrap_or_default();
+        const STRUCTURED_DATA_MAX_BYTES: usize = 16 * 1024;
+        if serialized.len() <= STRUCTURED_DATA_MAX_BYTES {
+            out.push_str("\n\n## Structured Data\n\n```json\n");
+            out.push_str(&serialized);
+            out.push_str("\n```");
+        }
     }
 
     out.trim().to_string()
 }
 
+/// Decide whether a structured-data value carries content worth emitting.
+///
+/// Schema.org records with a recognizable content `@type` (Article, NewsArticle,
+/// Product, Recipe, FAQPage, HowTo, Event, Person, Organization, BreadcrumbList,
+/// VideoObject, JobPosting, etc.) are kept. Generic `WebSite` / `WebPage` /
+/// `ItemList` records and Next.js `pageProps`-style blobs without a useful
+/// `@type` are dropped — they're almost always navigation chrome or framework
+/// hydration state.
+fn is_useful_structured_data(v: &serde_json::Value) -> bool {
+    let Some(obj) = v.as_object() else {
+        // SvelteKit can emit compact arrays of page data. Keep those if they
+        // are small enough to be useful, while still dropping giant hydration
+        // arrays under the same budget as untyped objects.
+        if v.is_array() {
+            let serialized = serde_json::to_string(v).unwrap_or_default();
+            return serialized.len() <= 4 * 1024;
+        }
+        return false;
+    };
+    // JSON-LD: @type drives the decision.
+    if let Some(t) = obj.get("@type") {
+        let types: Vec<String> = match t {
+            serde_json::Value::String(s) => vec![s.to_ascii_lowercase()],
+            serde_json::Value::Array(a) => a
+                .iter()
+                .filter_map(|x| x.as_str())
+                .map(str::to_ascii_lowercase)
+                .collect(),
+            _ => Vec::new(),
+        };
+        if types.is_empty() {
+            return false;
+        }
+        // Drop low-info chrome types.
+        const DROP_TYPES: &[&str] = &["website", "webpage", "sitenavigationelement"];
+        return types.iter().any(|t| !DROP_TYPES.iter().any(|d| t == d));
+    }
+    // Next.js pageProps / SvelteKit data without @type: keep only if compact.
+    // Anything over ~4KB is almost certainly hydration state, not content.
+    let serialized = serde_json::to_string(v).unwrap_or_default();
+    serialized.len() <= 4 * 1024
+}
+
+/// Recursively remove long fields that duplicate the rendered markdown body.
+///
+/// `depth` guards against stack exhaustion from attacker-controlled
+/// JSON-LD / `__NEXT_DATA__` blobs with pathological nesting: past
+/// [`MAX_SCRUB_DEPTH`] levels we stop descending and leave the subtree
+/// as-is (it is still size-capped by the `STRUCTURED_DATA_MAX_BYTES`
+/// budget in `to_llm_text`).
+fn scrub_body_fields(v: &mut serde_json::Value, depth: usize) {
+    const BODY_KEYS: &[&str] = &["articleBody"];
+    const LONG_BODY_KEYS: &[&str] = &["body", "text", "description"];
+    const LONG_THRESHOLD: usize = 500;
+    const MAX_SCRUB_DEPTH: usize = 64;
+
+    if depth >= MAX_SCRUB_DEPTH {
+        return;
+    }
+
+    match v {
+        serde_json::Value::Object(map) => {
+            map.retain(|key, value| {
+                if BODY_KEYS.contains(&key.as_str()) {
+                    return false;
+                }
+                if LONG_BODY_KEYS.contains(&key.as_str())
+                    && value.as_str().is_some_and(|s| s.len() >= LONG_THRESHOLD)
+                {
+                    return false;
+                }
+                true
+            });
+            for value in map.values_mut() {
+                scrub_body_fields(value, depth + 1);
+            }
+        }
+        serde_json::Value::Array(values) => {
+            for value in values {
+                scrub_body_fields(value, depth + 1);
+            }
+        }
+        _ => {}
+    }
+}
+
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 // Integration tests that exercise the full pipeline through to_llm_text
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@@ -700,4 +804,168 @@ mod tests {
         assert!(out.contains("Some content"), "Content before lost: {out}");
         assert!(out.contains("More content"), "Content after lost: {out}");
     }
+
+    // -- Structured-data gating tests --
+
+    fn make_result_with_structured(values: Vec<serde_json::Value>) -> ExtractionResult {
+        let mut r = make_result("# Body");
+        r.structured_data = values;
+        r
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn structured_data_drops_chrome_types() {
+        // WebSite/WebPage records are framework chrome — should be dropped.
+        let r = make_result_with_structured(vec![serde_json::json!({
+            "@type": "WebSite",
+            "name": "Example",
+            "url": "https://example.com"
+        })]);
+        let out = to_llm_text(&r, None);
+        assert!(
+            !out.contains("## Structured Data"),
+            "WebSite chrome leaked into output: {out}"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn structured_data_keeps_article_types() {
+        let r = make_result_with_structured(vec![serde_json::json!({
+            "@type": "NewsArticle",
+            "headline": "Big news",
+            "datePublished": "2026-05-10"
+        })]);
+        let out = to_llm_text(&r, None);
+        assert!(
+            out.contains("## Structured Data"),
+            "NewsArticle dropped: {out}"
+        );
+        assert!(out.contains("Big news"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn structured_data_scrubs_duplicate_article_body() {
+        let body = "This is the rendered article body. ".repeat(40);
+        let r = make_result_with_structured(vec![serde_json::json!({
+            "@type": "NewsArticle",
+            "headline": "Big news",
+            "articleBody": body,
+            "description": "A short useful summary"
+        })]);
+        let out = to_llm_text(&r, None);
+        assert!(out.contains("Big news"));
+        assert!(out.contains("A short useful summary"));
+        assert!(
+            !out.contains("articleBody"),
+            "Duplicate article body leaked: {out}"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn llm_output_strips_comment_count_links_and_pagination() {
+        let md = "Lead paragraph.\n\n[0](https://example.com/#comment-stream) Next\n\n5 minutes read\n\n[Article](https://example.com/article)";
+        let result = make_result(md);
+        let out = to_llm_text(&result, None);
+        assert!(out.contains("Lead paragraph."));
+        assert!(out.contains("5 minutes read"));
+        assert!(out.contains("- Article: https://example.com/article"));
+        assert!(!out.contains("0 Next"), "Pagination leaked: {out}");
+        assert!(
+            !out.contains("comment-stream"),
+            "Comment link leaked: {out}"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn structured_data_drops_oversized_blob() {
+        // 32KB pageProps-style blob with no @type — should be dropped.
+        let big = "x".repeat(32 * 1024);
+        let r = make_result_with_structured(vec![serde_json::json!({
+            "buildId": "abc",
+            "isFallback": false,
+            "noise": big
+        })]);
+        let out = to_llm_text(&r, None);
+        assert!(
+            !out.contains("## Structured Data"),
+            "Oversized untyped blob leaked: len={}",
+            out.len()
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn structured_data_keeps_compact_untyped() {
+        // Small untyped record (e.g. a parsed pageProps with real content) — keep.
+        let r = make_result_with_structured(vec![serde_json::json!({
+            "title": "Hi",
+            "body": "small enough to keep"
+        })]);
+        let out = to_llm_text(&r, None);
+        assert!(
+            out.contains("## Structured Data"),
+            "Compact untyped dropped: {out}"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn structured_data_keeps_compact_untyped_array() {
+        // SvelteKit can emit compact arrays rather than objects.
+        let r = make_result_with_structured(vec![serde_json::json!([
+            { "title": "Hi", "body": "small array item" }
+        ])]);
+        let out = to_llm_text(&r, None);
+        assert!(
+            out.contains("small array item"),
+            "Compact untyped array dropped: {out}"
+        );
+    }
+
+    /// Walk `value` down its single `"n"` child link and return the depth
+    /// at which an `articleBody` key is still present (i.e. was NOT
+    /// scrubbed). Used to observe exactly where the recursion stopped.
+    fn first_unscrubbed_article_body_depth(mut value: &serde_json::Value) -> Option<usize> {
+        let mut depth = 0;
+        loop {
+            let obj = value.as_object()?;
+            if obj.contains_key("articleBody") {
+                return Some(depth);
+            }
+            value = obj.get("n")?;
+            depth += 1;
+        }
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn scrub_body_fields_bounds_recursion_on_deep_nesting() {
+        // Attacker-controlled JSON-LD / __NEXT_DATA__ with pathological
+        // nesting must not recurse without bound. Build a chain a little
+        // past the 64-level cap where every level carries a scrub-able
+        // `articleBody`. Levels within the cap get scrubbed; the first
+        // level past the cap keeps its `articleBody` because recursion
+        // stopped — that is the bound we assert. (Kept shallow on purpose:
+        // serde_json drops Values recursively, so a 10k-deep value would
+        // overflow the stack just being dropped.)
+        const DEPTH: usize = 80;
+        let mut node = serde_json::json!({ "articleBody": "x".repeat(600) });
+        for _ in 0..DEPTH {
+            node = serde_json::json!({
+                "articleBody": "x".repeat(600),
+                "n": node,
+            });
+        }
+
+        scrub_body_fields(&mut node, 0);
+
+        let stopped_at = first_unscrubbed_article_body_depth(&node)
+            .expect("recursion must stop and leave a deep articleBody intact");
+        // Top levels were scrubbed; the survivor sits right at the cap.
+        assert_eq!(
+            stopped_at, 64,
+            "recursion should stop at the depth cap, stopped at {stopped_at}"
+        );
+        assert!(
+            node.as_object().unwrap().get("articleBody").is_none(),
+            "shallow articleBody must still be scrubbed"
+        );
+    }
 }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/markdown.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/markdown.rs
index 1a61586..2699166 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-core/src/markdown.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/markdown.rs
@@ -320,6 +320,9 @@ fn children_to_md(
                 }
             }
             Node::Text(text) => {
+                if !text.is_empty() && !out.is_empty() && needs_separator(&out, text) {
+                    out.push(' ');
+                }
                 out.push_str(text);
             }
             _ => {}
@@ -350,6 +353,9 @@ fn inline_text(
                 }
             }
             Node::Text(text) => {
+                if !text.is_empty() && !out.is_empty() && needs_separator(&out, text) {
+                    out.push(' ');
+                }
                 out.push_str(text);
             }
             _ => {}
@@ -361,11 +367,65 @@ fn inline_text(
 
 /// Check whether a space is needed between two adjacent chunks of output.
 /// Returns true when the left side doesn't end with whitespace and the right
-/// side doesn't start with whitespace — i.e., two words would be mashed together.
+/// side doesn't start with whitespace, except around punctuation that should
+/// bind to the adjacent token.
 fn needs_separator(left: &str, right: &str) -> bool {
-    let l = left.as_bytes().last().copied().unwrap_or(b' ');
-    let r = right.as_bytes().first().copied().unwrap_or(b' ');
-    !l.is_ascii_whitespace() && !r.is_ascii_whitespace()
+    let l = left.chars().next_back().unwrap_or(' ');
+    let r = right.chars().next().unwrap_or(' ');
+
+    if l.is_whitespace() || r.is_whitespace() {
+        return false;
+    }
+
+    // Do not create "word ," / "word )" / "word 's" artifacts.
+    if is_closing_punctuation(r) {
+        return false;
+    }
+
+    // Do not create "( word" / "[ 1" artifacts.
+    if is_opening_punctuation(l) {
+        return false;
+    }
+
+    // Common inline-code suffixes: `Option`s, `x`'s. Treat them like a
+    // single token rather than separating the text node.
+    if matches!(l, '`' | ')') && starts_with_inline_code_suffix(right) {
+        return false;
+    }
+
+    true
+}
+
+fn starts_with_inline_code_suffix(s: &str) -> bool {
+    let trimmed = s.trim_start_matches(['*', '_']);
+    let mut chars = trimmed.chars();
+    let Some(first) = chars.next() else {
+        return false;
+    };
+
+    if matches!(first, '\'' | '’') {
+        return true;
+    }
+
+    if !matches!(first, 's' | 'S') {
+        return false;
+    }
+
+    match chars.next() {
+        None => true,
+        Some(c) => c.is_whitespace() || is_closing_punctuation(c) || matches!(c, '*' | '_'),
+    }
+}
+
+fn is_closing_punctuation(c: char) -> bool {
+    matches!(
+        c,
+        '.' | ',' | ';' | ':' | '!' | '?' | ')' | ']' | '}' | '%' | '\'' | '’' | '"' | '”'
+    )
+}
+
+fn is_opening_punctuation(c: char) -> bool {
+    matches!(c, '(' | '[' | '{' | '"' | '“')
 }
 
 /// Collect raw text content (no markdown formatting).
@@ -920,8 +980,10 @@ fn strip_markdown(md: &str) -> String {
             continue;
         }
 
-        // Convert table data rows: strip leading/trailing pipes, replace inner pipes with tabs
-        if trimmed.starts_with('|') && trimmed.ends_with('|') {
+        // Convert table data rows: strip leading/trailing pipes, replace inner pipes with tabs.
+        // Require at least 2 chars so the slice `[1..len-1]` stays non-empty on single-pipe rows
+        // (which aren't real tables anyway); a lone `|` previously panicked at `begin <= end`.
+        if trimmed.len() >= 2 && trimmed.starts_with('|') && trimmed.ends_with('|') {
             let inner = &trimmed[1..trimmed.len() - 1];
             let cells: Vec<&str> = inner.split('|').map(|c| c.trim()).collect();
             lines.push(cells.join("\t"));
@@ -1604,4 +1666,39 @@ mod tests {
             "collapse_whitespace stripped 6-space indent: {output}"
         );
     }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn text_after_inline_element_keeps_separator() {
+        // Reuters-style markup: <a><time>3h</time>ago</a><a>Tanker crosses...</a>
+        // The "ago" text node sits between two element children. Without a
+        // separator check on the Text branch, "ago" + "Tanker" would smash
+        // together as "agoTanker".
+        let html = r#"<div><span>3h</span>ago<span>Tanker crosses Strait</span></div>"#;
+        let (md, _, _) = convert_html(html, None);
+        assert!(
+            !md.contains("agoTanker"),
+            "Element->Text->Element smashed together: {md}"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn punctuation_after_inline_element_stays_attached() {
+        let html = r#"<p><span>Hello</span>, world. Use <code>package.json</code>.</p>"#;
+        let (md, _, _) = convert_html(html, None);
+        assert!(md.contains("Hello, world"), "punctuation detached: {md}");
+        assert!(
+            md.contains("`package.json`."),
+            "code punctuation detached: {md}"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn inline_code_suffix_stays_attached() {
+        let html = r#"<p><a href="https://example.com"><code>NullPointerException</code></a><em>s</em> are common.</p>"#;
+        let (md, _, _) = convert_html(html, None);
+        assert!(
+            md.contains("[`NullPointerException`](https://example.com)*s* are common"),
+            "code suffix detached: {md}"
+        );
+    }
 }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/src/reddit.rs b/crates/webclaw-core/src/reddit.rs
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..5f6c53e
--- /dev/null
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/src/reddit.rs
@@ -0,0 +1,968 @@
+//! Reddit thread extractor — parses old.reddit.com HTML directly.
+//!
+//! old.reddit.com serves fully server-rendered HTML with stable class names
+//! and data attributes. No JS, no API key, no `.json` trick needed.
+
+use scraper::{ElementRef, Html, Selector};
+use serde::Serialize;
+
+use crate::{Content, DomainData, DomainType, ExtractionResult, Metadata};
+
+// ─── Public types ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+#[derive(Serialize)]
+pub struct RedditPost {
+    pub id: Option<String>,
+    pub title: String,
+    pub author: String,
+    pub subreddit: Option<String>,
+    pub score: i64,
+    pub body: Option<String>,
+    pub num_comments: usize,
+    pub permalink: String,
+    pub url: Option<String>,
+    pub is_self: bool,
+    pub flair: Option<String>,
+    pub created_utc: Option<String>,
+}
+
+#[derive(Serialize)]
+pub struct RedditComment {
+    pub id: Option<String>,
+    pub author: String,
+    pub body: String,
+    /// `None` when Reddit hides the score (fresh comments). Distinct from
+    /// `Some(0)`, which is a real net-zero score.
+    pub score: Option<i64>,
+    pub depth: usize,
+    pub is_op: bool,
+    pub created_utc: Option<String>,
+    pub replies: Vec<RedditComment>,
+}
+
+#[derive(Serialize)]
+pub struct RedditThread {
+    #[serde(rename = "url")]
+    pub source_url: String,
+    pub post: Option<RedditPost>,
+    pub comments: Vec<RedditComment>,
+}
+
+// ─── Public API ────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+pub fn is_reddit_url(url: &str) -> bool {
+    matches!(
+        host_of(url),
+        "reddit.com" | "www.reddit.com" | "old.reddit.com" | "np.reddit.com" | "new.reddit.com"
+    )
+}
+
+/// Try to parse a Reddit thread from old.reddit.com HTML.
+/// Returns `None` if the page doesn't have recognisable Reddit structure.
+pub fn try_extract_thread(html: &str, url: &str) -> Option<RedditThread> {
+    if !url.contains("/comments/") {
+        return None;
+    }
+    let doc = Html::parse_document(html);
+    let post = parse_post(&doc);
+    let op = post.as_ref().map(|p| p.author.as_str()).unwrap_or("");
+    let comments = parse_comments(&doc, op);
+
+    if post.is_none() && comments.is_empty() {
+        return None;
+    }
+
+    Some(RedditThread {
+        source_url: url.to_string(),
+        post,
+        comments,
+    })
+}
+
+/// Entry point for `webclaw-core`'s extraction fast path.
+pub fn try_extract(html: &str, url: &str) -> Option<ExtractionResult> {
+    let thread = try_extract_thread(html, url)?;
+    Some(to_extraction_result(&thread))
+}
+
+// ─── ExtractionResult builder ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+fn to_extraction_result(thread: &RedditThread) -> ExtractionResult {
+    let md = to_markdown(thread);
+    let plain = plain_text(&md);
+    let wc = md.split_whitespace().count();
+
+    let (title, author, site_name) = thread
+        .post
+        .as_ref()
+        .map(|p| {
+            (
+                Some(p.title.clone()),
+                Some(p.author.clone()),
+                p.subreddit.clone(),
+            )
+        })
+        .unwrap_or_default();
+
+    ExtractionResult {
+        metadata: Metadata {
+            title,
+            description: None,
+            author,
+            published_date: None,
+            language: Some("en".to_string()),
+            url: Some(thread.source_url.clone()),
+            site_name,
+            image: None,
+            favicon: None,
+            word_count: wc,
+        },
+        content: Content {
+            markdown: md,
+            plain_text: plain,
+            links: vec![],
+            images: vec![],
+            code_blocks: vec![],
+            raw_html: None,
+        },
+        domain_data: Some(DomainData {
+            domain_type: DomainType::Social,
+        }),
+        structured_data: vec![],
+    }
+}
+
+// ─── Markdown rendering ────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+pub fn to_markdown(thread: &RedditThread) -> String {
+    let mut out = String::new();
+
+    if let Some(p) = &thread.post {
+        out.push_str(&format!("# {}\n\n", p.title));
+
+        let pts = pt_label(Some(p.score));
+        let cmt = match p.num_comments {
+            0 => String::new(),
+            1 => " · 1 comment".to_string(),
+            n => format!(" · {n} comments"),
+        };
+        let sub = p.subreddit.as_deref().unwrap_or("?");
+        out.push_str(&format!("**u/{}** · r/{sub} · {pts}{cmt}\n\n", p.author));
+
+        if let Some(ref body) = p.body
+            && !body.is_empty()
+        {
+            out.push_str(body);
+            out.push_str("\n\n");
+        }
+        if let Some(ref link) = p.url
+            && !p.is_self
+        {
+            out.push_str(&format!("[Link]({link})\n\n"));
+        }
+        out.push_str("---\n\n");
+    }
+
+    if !thread.comments.is_empty() {
+        out.push_str("## Comments\n\n");
+        for c in &thread.comments {
+            render_comment(c, &mut out);
+        }
+    }
+
+    collapse_blank_lines(out.trim_end())
+}
+
+/// Render one comment + its replies. Nesting is expressed with blockquote
+/// depth (`> ` per level) rather than leading spaces: space-indentation of
+/// 4+ would turn ordinary text and ``` fences into CommonMark indented code
+/// blocks, corrupting any comment at depth ≥ 2.
+fn render_comment(c: &RedditComment, out: &mut String) {
+    let q = "> ".repeat(c.depth);
+    let blank = ">".repeat(c.depth);
+    let author = if c.is_op {
+        format!("**u/{} [OP]**", c.author)
+    } else {
+        format!("**u/{}**", c.author)
+    };
+    out.push_str(&format!("{q}{author} · {}\n", pt_label(c.score)));
+    for line in c.body.lines() {
+        if line.is_empty() {
+            out.push_str(&blank);
+            out.push('\n');
+        } else {
+            out.push_str(&q);
+            out.push_str(line);
+            out.push('\n');
+        }
+    }
+    out.push('\n');
+    for reply in &c.replies {
+        render_comment(reply, out);
+    }
+}
+
+fn pt_label(n: Option<i64>) -> String {
+    match n {
+        None => "score hidden".to_string(),
+        Some(1) => "1 pt".to_string(),
+        Some(-1) => "-1 pt".to_string(),
+        Some(n) => format!("{n} pts"),
+    }
+}
+
+/// Collapse runs of 3+ newlines down to a blank-line separator so the
+/// blockquote prefixes and `<pre>` spacing don't leave large gaps.
+fn collapse_blank_lines(s: &str) -> String {
+    let mut out = String::with_capacity(s.len());
+    let mut newlines = 0;
+    for ch in s.chars() {
+        if ch == '\n' {
+            newlines += 1;
+            if newlines <= 2 {
+                out.push(ch);
+            }
+        } else {
+            newlines = 0;
+            out.push(ch);
+        }
+    }
+    out
+}
+
+fn plain_text(md: &str) -> String {
+    md.lines()
+        .map(|l| {
+            // Strip a single leading blockquote / heading marker, then drop
+            // emphasis markers. Greedy char-class stripping (the old approach)
+            // ate legitimate content like ">"-prefixed quotes.
+            let l = l.trim_start();
+            let l = l
+                .strip_prefix("> ")
+                .or_else(|| l.strip_prefix('>'))
+                .unwrap_or(l);
+            let l = l.trim_start_matches('#').trim_start();
+            l.replace("**", "")
+                .replace("~~", "")
+                .replace(['*', '`'], "")
+        })
+        .collect::<Vec<_>>()
+        .join("\n")
+}
+
+// ─── HTML parsing ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+fn parse_post(doc: &Html) -> Option<RedditPost> {
+    let sel = Selector::parse("#siteTable .thing.link").ok()?;
+    let thing = doc.select(&sel).next()?;
+    let v = thing.value();
+
+    let id = v
+        .attr("data-fullname")
+        .map(|s| s.trim_start_matches("t3_").to_string());
+    let author = v.attr("data-author").unwrap_or("[deleted]").to_string();
+    let subreddit = v.attr("data-subreddit").map(str::to_string);
+    let score: i64 = v
+        .attr("data-score")
+        .and_then(|s| s.parse().ok())
+        .unwrap_or(0);
+    let num_comments: usize = v
+        .attr("data-comments-count")
+        .and_then(|s| s.parse().ok())
+        .unwrap_or(0);
+    let permalink_path = v.attr("data-permalink").unwrap_or("");
+    let permalink = format!("https://old.reddit.com{permalink_path}");
+    // Self-posts carry the `self` class and a `self.<sub>` domain; their
+    // data-url points back at the permalink rather than an external site.
+    let is_self = v.has_class("self", scraper::CaseSensitivity::AsciiCaseInsensitive)
+        || v.attr("data-domain")
+            .is_some_and(|d| d.starts_with("self."));
+    let link_url = v.attr("data-url").map(str::to_string);
+    let url = if is_self { None } else { link_url };
+
+    // Title
+    let sel_title = Selector::parse(".title a.title").ok()?;
+    let title = thing
+        .select(&sel_title)
+        .next()
+        .map(|el| el.text().collect::<String>().trim().to_string())
+        .filter(|s| !s.is_empty())?;
+
+    // Flair
+    let flair = Selector::parse(".linkflairlabel")
+        .ok()
+        .and_then(|s| thing.select(&s).next())
+        .map(|el| el.text().collect::<String>().trim().to_string())
+        .filter(|s| !s.is_empty());
+
+    // Self-text body: thing > .entry > .expando > .usertext-body [> .md]
+    let body = direct_child(thing, "entry")
+        .and_then(|entry| find_class(entry, "expando"))
+        .and_then(|expando| find_class(expando, "usertext-body"))
+        .and_then(|ut| find_class(ut, "md"))
+        .map(md_to_markdown)
+        .filter(|s| !s.is_empty());
+
+    // Datetime
+    let created_utc = Selector::parse("time[datetime]")
+        .ok()
+        .and_then(|s| thing.select(&s).next())
+        .and_then(|t| t.value().attr("datetime"))
+        .map(str::to_string);
+
+    Some(RedditPost {
+        id,
+        title,
+        author,
+        subreddit,
+        score,
+        body,
+        num_comments,
+        permalink,
+        url,
+        is_self,
+        flair,
+        created_utc,
+    })
+}
+
+// ─── Comment parsing ───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+//
+// old.reddit.com nests comments structurally, not via a depth attribute:
+//
+//   .commentarea
+//     .sitetable.nestedlisting
+//       .comment.thing                          ← root comment
+//         .entry → form → .usertext-body → .md  ← its own body
+//         .child
+//           .sitetable.listing
+//             .comment.thing                    ← reply (recurse)
+//
+// `data-depth`/`data-replies` are absent or always "0" in the logged-out
+// HTML, so we walk the tree by recursing into each comment's `.child`.
+
+fn parse_comments(doc: &Html, op: &str) -> Vec<RedditComment> {
+    // Root listing is `.sitetable.nestedlisting` inside `.commentarea`
+    // (note: `commentarea` is a class on old.reddit, not an id). Fall back
+    // to the first `.nestedlisting` anywhere for comment-permalink pages.
+    let listing = Selector::parse(".commentarea .sitetable.nestedlisting")
+        .ok()
+        .and_then(|s| doc.select(&s).next())
+        .or_else(|| {
+            Selector::parse(".sitetable.nestedlisting")
+                .ok()
+                .and_then(|s| doc.select(&s).next())
+        });
+
+    match listing {
+        Some(l) => walk_comment_level(l, op, 0),
+        None => vec![],
+    }
+}
+
+/// Parse the direct-child `.comment.thing` elements of a comment listing.
+fn walk_comment_level(listing: ElementRef, op: &str, depth: usize) -> Vec<RedditComment> {
+    listing
+        .children()
+        .filter_map(ElementRef::wrap)
+        .filter(|c| {
+            let val = c.value();
+            val.has_class("comment", scraper::CaseSensitivity::AsciiCaseInsensitive)
+                && val.has_class("thing", scraper::CaseSensitivity::AsciiCaseInsensitive)
+        })
+        .filter_map(|c| parse_one_comment(c, op, depth))
+        .collect()
+}
+
+fn parse_one_comment(c: ElementRef, op: &str, depth: usize) -> Option<RedditComment> {
+    let v = c.value();
+
+    // "load more comments" placeholders are `.thing` with type=morechildren.
+    // They carry a t1_ fullname but no real content — skip them.
+    if v.attr("data-type") == Some("morechildren")
+        || v.has_class(
+            "morechildren",
+            scraper::CaseSensitivity::AsciiCaseInsensitive,
+        )
+    {
+        return None;
+    }
+
+    let is_deleted = v.has_class("deleted", scraper::CaseSensitivity::AsciiCaseInsensitive);
+    let id = v
+        .attr("data-fullname")
+        .map(|s| s.trim_start_matches("t1_").to_string());
+    let author = v
+        .attr("data-author")
+        .filter(|a| !a.is_empty())
+        .unwrap_or("[deleted]")
+        .to_string();
+
+    // Own body lives in `.entry > form > .usertext-body > .md`. `.child`
+    // (nested replies) is a sibling of `.entry`, so descending within
+    // `.entry` never crosses into a reply's body.
+    let entry = direct_child(c, "entry");
+    let body = entry
+        .and_then(|e| find_class(e, "usertext-body"))
+        .and_then(|ut| find_class(ut, "md"))
+        .map(md_to_markdown)
+        .filter(|s| !s.is_empty())
+        .unwrap_or_else(|| {
+            if is_deleted {
+                "[removed]".into()
+            } else {
+                String::new()
+            }
+        });
+
+    // Displayed score is `.score.unvoted`, whose `title` holds the exact
+    // integer (the sibling likes/dislikes spans are ±1). Hidden-score
+    // comments have no `.score.unvoted` span, so `comment_score` returns
+    // None — kept distinct from a genuine 0.
+    let score = entry.and_then(comment_score);
+
+    let created_utc = entry
+        .zip(Selector::parse("time[datetime]").ok())
+        .and_then(|(e, s)| e.select(&s).next())
+        .and_then(|t| t.value().attr("datetime"))
+        .map(str::to_string);
+
+    let is_op = !is_deleted && author != "[deleted]" && author == op;
+
+    // Replies: `.comment > .child > .sitetable > .comment`.
+    let replies = direct_child(c, "child")
+        .and_then(|child| direct_child(child, "sitetable"))
+        .map(|st| walk_comment_level(st, op, depth + 1))
+        .unwrap_or_default();
+
+    Some(RedditComment {
+        id,
+        author,
+        body,
+        score,
+        depth,
+        is_op,
+        created_utc,
+        replies,
+    })
+}
+
+/// Read a comment's score from the `.score.unvoted` span inside `.entry`.
+/// Prefers the `title` attribute (exact integer); falls back to the text.
+/// Returns `None` when Reddit hides the score (no `.score.unvoted` span).
+fn comment_score(entry: ElementRef) -> Option<i64> {
+    let sel = Selector::parse("span.score.unvoted").ok()?;
+    let span = entry.select(&sel).next()?;
+    span.value()
+        .attr("title")
+        .and_then(|t| t.trim().parse().ok())
+        .or_else(|| parse_score(&span.text().collect::<String>()))
+}
+
+// ─── DOM helpers ───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+/// First direct child element whose class list includes `class`.
+fn direct_child<'a>(el: ElementRef<'a>, class: &str) -> Option<ElementRef<'a>> {
+    el.children().filter_map(ElementRef::wrap).find(|c| {
+        c.value()
+            .has_class(class, scraper::CaseSensitivity::AsciiCaseInsensitive)
+    })
+}
+
+/// First descendant (any depth) whose class list includes `class`.
+fn find_class<'a>(el: ElementRef<'a>, class: &str) -> Option<ElementRef<'a>> {
+    el.children().filter_map(ElementRef::wrap).find_map(|c| {
+        if c.value()
+            .has_class(class, scraper::CaseSensitivity::AsciiCaseInsensitive)
+        {
+            Some(c)
+        } else {
+            find_class(c, class)
+        }
+    })
+}
+
+fn parse_score(text: &str) -> Option<i64> {
+    text.split_whitespace()
+        .next()
+        .map(|w| w.replace('−', "-"))
+        .and_then(|w| w.parse().ok())
+}
+
+// ─── .md div → markdown ────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+fn md_to_markdown(el: ElementRef) -> String {
+    let mut out = String::new();
+    render_children(el, &mut out);
+    out.trim().to_string()
+}
+
+fn render_children(el: ElementRef, out: &mut String) {
+    use scraper::node::Node;
+    for child in el.children() {
+        match child.value() {
+            Node::Text(t) => out.push_str(t.as_ref()),
+            Node::Element(_) => {
+                if let Some(c) = ElementRef::wrap(child) {
+                    render_node(c, out);
+                }
+            }
+            _ => {}
+        }
+    }
+}
+
+fn render_node(el: ElementRef, out: &mut String) {
+    match el.value().name() {
+        "p" | "div" => {
+            let mut inner = String::new();
+            render_children(el, &mut inner);
+            let t = inner.trim();
+            if !t.is_empty() {
+                out.push_str(t);
+                out.push_str("\n\n");
+            }
+        }
+        "br" => out.push('\n'),
+        "strong" | "b" => {
+            let t: String = el.text().collect();
+            let t = t.trim();
+            if !t.is_empty() {
+                out.push_str(&format!("**{t}**"));
+            }
+        }
+        "em" | "i" => {
+            let t: String = el.text().collect();
+            let t = t.trim();
+            if !t.is_empty() {
+                out.push_str(&format!("*{t}*"));
+            }
+        }
+        "del" | "s" | "strike" => {
+            let t: String = el.text().collect();
+            let t = t.trim();
+            if !t.is_empty() {
+                out.push_str(&format!("~~{t}~~"));
+            }
+        }
+        "code" => {
+            let t: String = el.text().collect();
+            out.push('`');
+            out.push_str(t.trim());
+            out.push('`');
+        }
+        "pre" => {
+            let t: String = el.text().collect();
+            out.push_str("```\n");
+            out.push_str(t.trim_end_matches('\n'));
+            out.push_str("\n```\n\n");
+        }
+        "a" => {
+            let text: String = el.text().collect();
+            let text = text.trim();
+            if !text.is_empty() {
+                // Preserve the destination as a markdown link. Resolve
+                // root-relative reddit hrefs (/r/, /user/, /wiki/, ...) and
+                // drop non-navigational ones (javascript:, #fragment, mailto:).
+                let href = el.value().attr("href").unwrap_or("");
+                if href.starts_with("http://") || href.starts_with("https://") {
+                    out.push_str(&format!("[{text}]({href})"));
+                } else if href.starts_with('/') {
+                    out.push_str(&format!("[{text}](https://old.reddit.com{href})"));
+                } else {
+                    out.push_str(text);
+                }
+            }
+        }
+        "blockquote" => {
+            let mut inner = String::new();
+            render_children(el, &mut inner);
+            let trimmed = inner.trim();
+            for line in trimmed.lines() {
+                out.push('>');
+                if !line.is_empty() {
+                    out.push(' ');
+                    out.push_str(line);
+                }
+                out.push('\n');
+            }
+            out.push('\n');
+        }
+        "ul" => render_list(el, false, 0, out),
+        "ol" => render_list(el, true, 0, out),
+        "h1" | "h2" | "h3" | "h4" | "h5" | "h6" => {
+            let level = el
+                .value()
+                .name()
+                .chars()
+                .nth(1)
+                .and_then(|c| c.to_digit(10))
+                .unwrap_or(2) as usize;
+            let t: String = el.text().collect();
+            let t = t.trim();
+            if !t.is_empty() {
+                out.push_str(&"#".repeat(level));
+                out.push(' ');
+                out.push_str(t);
+                out.push_str("\n\n");
+            }
+        }
+        "hr" => out.push_str("---\n\n"),
+        "sup" => {
+            let t: String = el.text().collect();
+            out.push_str(t.trim());
+        }
+        // Unknown / generic containers: recurse
+        _ => render_children(el, out),
+    }
+}
+
+/// Render a `<ul>`/`<ol>`, indenting nested lists by two spaces per level so
+/// child items keep their own line instead of being glued to the parent.
+fn render_list(list: ElementRef, ordered: bool, indent: usize, out: &mut String) {
+    use scraper::node::Node;
+    let pad = "  ".repeat(indent);
+    let mut n = 0;
+    for li in list
+        .children()
+        .filter_map(ElementRef::wrap)
+        .filter(|c| c.value().name() == "li")
+    {
+        n += 1;
+        // Inline content of this <li>, excluding nested lists (rendered after).
+        let mut inline = String::new();
+        for child in li.children() {
+            match child.value() {
+                Node::Text(t) => inline.push_str(t.as_ref()),
+                Node::Element(e) if e.name() == "ul" || e.name() == "ol" => {}
+                Node::Element(_) => {
+                    if let Some(c) = ElementRef::wrap(child) {
+                        render_node(c, &mut inline);
+                    }
+                }
+                _ => {}
+            }
+        }
+        let marker = if ordered {
+            format!("{n}. ")
+        } else {
+            "- ".to_string()
+        };
+        out.push_str(&format!("{pad}{marker}{}\n", inline.trim()));
+
+        for child in li.children().filter_map(ElementRef::wrap) {
+            match child.value().name() {
+                "ul" => render_list(child, false, indent + 1, out),
+                "ol" => render_list(child, true, indent + 1, out),
+                _ => {}
+            }
+        }
+    }
+    if indent == 0 {
+        out.push('\n');
+    }
+}
+
+// ─── URL helpers ───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+fn host_of(url: &str) -> &str {
+    url.split("://")
+        .nth(1)
+        .unwrap_or(url)
+        .split(['/', '?', '#'])
+        .next()
+        .unwrap_or("")
+}
+
+// ─── Tests ─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
+
+#[cfg(test)]
+mod tests {
+    use super::*;
+
+    #[test]
+    fn is_reddit_url_recognises_variants() {
+        assert!(is_reddit_url(
+            "https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x/"
+        ));
+        assert!(is_reddit_url(
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x/"
+        ));
+        assert!(is_reddit_url("https://reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x/"));
+        assert!(!is_reddit_url("https://example.com"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn try_extract_thread_returns_none_for_listing_url() {
+        let html = "<html><body></body></html>";
+        assert!(try_extract_thread(html, "https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/").is_none());
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn md_to_markdown_basic() {
+        let html =
+            Html::parse_fragment(r#"<div class="md"><p>Hello <strong>world</strong>!</p></div>"#);
+        let sel = Selector::parse(".md").unwrap();
+        let el = html.select(&sel).next().unwrap();
+        let md = md_to_markdown(el);
+        assert!(md.contains("**world**"));
+        assert!(md.contains("Hello"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn md_to_markdown_blockquote_and_code() {
+        let html = Html::parse_fragment(
+            r#"<div class="md"><blockquote><p>Quoted</p></blockquote><pre><code>fn main() {}</code></pre></div>"#,
+        );
+        let sel = Selector::parse(".md").unwrap();
+        let el = html.select(&sel).next().unwrap();
+        let md = md_to_markdown(el);
+        assert!(md.contains("> Quoted"));
+        assert!(md.contains("```"));
+        assert!(md.contains("fn main()"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn md_to_markdown_link_preserves_href() {
+        let abs = Html::parse_fragment(
+            r#"<div class="md"><p>see <a href="https://example.com/x">this</a></p></div>"#,
+        );
+        let sel = Selector::parse(".md").unwrap();
+        let el = abs.select(&sel).next().unwrap();
+        assert!(md_to_markdown(el).contains("[this](https://example.com/x)"));
+
+        // Root-relative reddit links resolve against old.reddit.com.
+        let rel = Html::parse_fragment(
+            r#"<div class="md"><p><a href="/r/rust/wiki/faq">faq</a></p></div>"#,
+        );
+        let el = rel.select(&sel).next().unwrap();
+        assert!(md_to_markdown(el).contains("[faq](https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/wiki/faq)"));
+
+        // javascript: / fragment hrefs degrade to bare text.
+        let js = Html::parse_fragment(
+            r#"<div class="md"><p><a href="javascript:void(0)">x</a></p></div>"#,
+        );
+        let el = js.select(&sel).next().unwrap();
+        let out = md_to_markdown(el);
+        assert!(out.contains('x') && !out.contains("javascript"));
+    }
+
+    // ── Regression tests against REAL old.reddit.com HTML ──────────────────
+    //
+    // These fixtures are genuine pages fetched from old.reddit.com (see
+    // testdata/reddit/). They are the ground truth — synthetic HTML is too
+    // easy to write to match wrong assumptions, which is exactly how the
+    // first version of this parser shipped silently broken.
+
+    fn fixture(name: &str) -> String {
+        std::fs::read_to_string(format!("testdata/reddit/{name}")).unwrap()
+    }
+
+    fn total_comments(cs: &[RedditComment]) -> usize {
+        cs.len() + cs.iter().map(|c| total_comments(&c.replies)).sum::<usize>()
+    }
+
+    fn collect<'a>(cs: &'a [RedditComment], out: &mut Vec<&'a RedditComment>) {
+        for c in cs {
+            out.push(c);
+            collect(&c.replies, out);
+        }
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_link_post_metadata() {
+        // pandas: external-link post (blog.geekuni.com), 34 comments.
+        let html = fixture("pandas_34comments.html");
+        let t = try_extract_thread(
+            &html,
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abc123/t/",
+        )
+        .expect("should parse");
+        let p = t.post.expect("post");
+        assert_eq!(p.author, "Horror-Willingness74");
+        assert_eq!(p.subreddit.as_deref(), Some("programming"));
+        assert_eq!(p.score, 43);
+        assert_eq!(p.num_comments, 34, "data-comments-count");
+        assert!(!p.is_self, "external blog link, not a self post");
+        assert_eq!(
+            p.url.as_deref(),
+            Some("https://blog.geekuni.com/2026/06/why-learn-pandas.html")
+        );
+        assert!(p.title.contains("Pandas"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_self_post_metadata() {
+        // A self-post (text) on r/rust: `self.rust` domain, self-text body,
+        // no external url.
+        let html = fixture("rust_selfpost_36comments.html");
+        let t = try_extract_thread(&html, "https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc123/t/")
+            .expect("should parse");
+        let p = t.post.expect("post");
+        assert!(p.is_self, "self.rust domain → self post");
+        assert_eq!(p.url, None, "self posts carry no external url");
+        assert_eq!(p.subreddit.as_deref(), Some("rust"));
+        assert!(
+            p.body
+                .as_deref()
+                .unwrap_or("")
+                .contains("IT project manager"),
+            "self-text body should be extracted: {:?}",
+            p.body
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_comment_bodies_and_scores() {
+        // The original bug: every comment body came back empty because
+        // .usertext-body sits inside a <form>, not directly under .entry.
+        let html = fixture("ebpf_6comments.html");
+        let t = try_extract_thread(
+            &html,
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abc123/t/",
+        )
+        .expect("should parse");
+        // 6 comments total: 5 top-level + 1 nested reply (admalledd under ejrh).
+        assert_eq!(t.comments.len(), 5, "5 top-level comments");
+        assert_eq!(total_comments(&t.comments), 6, "6 comments incl. nested");
+        let teerre = t
+            .comments
+            .iter()
+            .find(|c| c.author == "teerre")
+            .expect("teerre");
+        assert!(
+            teerre.body.contains("Very cool blog"),
+            "body must be populated, got {:?}",
+            teerre.body
+        );
+        // Score comes from .score.unvoted title (the real value), not the
+        // ±1 likes/dislikes siblings.
+        assert_eq!(
+            teerre.score,
+            Some(10),
+            "unvoted score, not dislikes(9)/likes(11)"
+        );
+        assert!(
+            t.comments.iter().all(|c| !c.body.is_empty()),
+            "no comment body should be empty"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_nested_comment_tree() {
+        // pandas has structurally-nested replies (.child > .sitetable >
+        // .comment). data-depth/data-replies are absent in logged-out HTML.
+        let html = fixture("pandas_34comments.html");
+        let t = try_extract_thread(
+            &html,
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abc123/t/",
+        )
+        .expect("should parse");
+        // 34 rendered comments with content + 1 [deleted] node that old.reddit
+        // still shows because it has live replies = 35 nodes in the tree.
+        assert_eq!(
+            total_comments(&t.comments),
+            35,
+            "all comments incl. nested + deleted"
+        );
+        let nested = t.comments.iter().any(|c| !c.replies.is_empty());
+        assert!(nested, "at least one comment must have replies");
+        let max_depth = {
+            fn d(cs: &[RedditComment]) -> usize {
+                cs.iter().map(|c| 1 + d(&c.replies)).max().unwrap_or(0)
+            }
+            d(&t.comments)
+        };
+        assert!(max_depth >= 2, "tree should be more than one level deep");
+        let a_reply = t.comments.iter().find_map(|c| c.replies.first());
+        assert_eq!(a_reply.map(|r| r.depth), Some(1));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_morechildren_stubs_skipped() {
+        // AskReddit deep thread: 259 .thing[data-fullname=t1_] markers, but
+        // some are "load more comments" stubs (data-type=morechildren) with
+        // no author/body. They must not appear as ghost comments.
+        let html = fixture("askreddit_deep_morechildren.html");
+        let t = try_extract_thread(
+            &html,
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/abc123/t/",
+        )
+        .expect("should parse");
+        fn check(cs: &[RedditComment]) {
+            for c in cs {
+                let ghost = c.body.is_empty() && c.author == "[deleted]" && c.id.is_some();
+                assert!(!ghost, "morechildren stub leaked as comment: {:?}", c.id);
+                check(&c.replies);
+            }
+        }
+        check(&t.comments);
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_hidden_score_is_none_not_zero() {
+        // AskReddit has fresh comments with `.score-hidden` (no .score.unvoted
+        // span). These must be None, distinct from a genuine 0-score comment.
+        let html = fixture("askreddit_deep_morechildren.html");
+        let t = try_extract_thread(
+            &html,
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/abc123/t/",
+        )
+        .expect("should parse");
+        let mut all = Vec::new();
+        collect(&t.comments, &mut all);
+        assert!(
+            all.iter().any(|c| c.score.is_none()),
+            "some fresh comments have hidden scores → None"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_deleted_comment_preserves_subtree() {
+        // pandas has a [deleted] comment that still has visible replies. The
+        // structural walk must keep it so its children aren't orphaned.
+        let html = fixture("pandas_34comments.html");
+        let t = try_extract_thread(
+            &html,
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abc123/t/",
+        )
+        .expect("should parse");
+        let mut all = Vec::new();
+        collect(&t.comments, &mut all);
+        let deleted: Vec<_> = all.iter().filter(|c| c.author == "[deleted]").collect();
+        assert!(!deleted.is_empty(), "should keep deleted comments");
+        assert!(
+            deleted.iter().any(|c| !c.replies.is_empty()),
+            "a deleted comment with replies must retain its subtree"
+        );
+        assert!(deleted.iter().all(|c| !c.is_op));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn real_markdown_is_commonmark_clean() {
+        // Guards the markdown bugs the verification workflow found: no
+        // whitespace-only "blank" lines, and ``` fences never indented 4+
+        // spaces (which would turn them into literal indented code blocks).
+        let html = fixture("elixir_60comments.html");
+        let result = try_extract(
+            &html,
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abc123/t/",
+        )
+        .expect("should extract");
+        let md = &result.content.markdown;
+        assert!(md.starts_with("# "));
+        assert!(md.contains("## Comments"));
+        for line in md.lines() {
+            assert!(
+                !(line.starts_with(' ') && line.trim().is_empty()),
+                "whitespace-only line: {line:?}"
+            );
+            let trimmed = line.trim_start_matches(['>', ' ']);
+            if trimmed.starts_with("```") {
+                let indent = line.len() - line.trim_start_matches(' ').len();
+                assert!(indent < 4, "code fence indented {indent} spaces: {line:?}");
+            }
+        }
+        assert!(result.metadata.word_count > 20);
+    }
+}
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-core/testdata/reddit/askreddit_deep_morechildren.html b/crates/webclaw-core/testdata/reddit/askreddit_deep_morechildren.html
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..decf833
--- /dev/null
+++ b/crates/webclaw-core/testdata/reddit/askreddit_deep_morechildren.html
@@ -0,0 +1,596 @@
+<!doctype html><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><head><title>What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore? : AskReddit</title><meta name="keywords" content=" reddit, reddit.com, vote, comment, submit " /><meta name="description" content="r/AskReddit is the place to ask and answer thought-provoking questions." /><meta name="referrer" content="always"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /><link type="application/opensearchdescription+xml" rel="search" href="/static/opensearch.xml"/><link rel="canonical" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" /><link rel="amphtml" href="https://amp.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" /><meta name="viewport" content="width=1024"><link rel="shorturl" href="https://redd.it/1twk04i"/><link rel="dns-prefetch" 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NSFW</dd></dl><p>e.g.&#32;<code>subreddit:aww site:imgur.com dog</code></p><p><a href="https://www.reddit.com/wiki/search">see the search faq for details.</a></p></div><p><a href="https://www.reddit.com/wiki/search" id="search_showmore">advanced search: by author, subreddit...</a></p></div></form></div><div class='spacer'><div class="linkinfo"><div class="date"><span>this post was submitted on &#32;</span><time datetime="2026-06-04T10:46:07+00:00">04 Jun 2026</time></div><div class="score"><span class="number">553</span>&#32;<span class="word">points</span>&#32;(88% upvoted)</div><div class="shortlink">shortlink: &#32;<input type="text" value="https://redd.it/1twk04i" readonly="readonly" id="shortlink-text" /></div></div></div><div class='spacer'></div><div class='spacer'><div class="sidebox submit submit-text"><div class="morelink"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/submit?selftext=true" data-event-action="submit" data-type="subreddit" data-event-detail="self" 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+
+<h3>Use a <strong>[Serious]</strong> post tag to designate your post as a serious, on-topic-only thread.</h3>
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+<h2></h2>
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+<a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/search/?q=flair%3Aserious&amp;sort=new&amp;restrict_sr=on&amp;t=all">Serious posts</a>
+<a href="http://bu.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/#bu">Megathread</a>
+<a href="http://nr.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/#nr">Breaking news</a>
+<a href="/r/AskReddit">Unfilter</a></p>
+
+<h2></h2>
+
+<h3>Please use spoiler tags to hide spoilers. <code>&gt;!insert spoiler here!&lt;</code></h3>
+
+<h2></h2>
+
+<h4>Other subreddits you might like:</h4>
+
+<table><thead>
+<tr>
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+<td align="left"><a href="https://reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/sidebarsubs/#wiki_general_discussion">General Discussion</a></td>
+</tr>
+<tr>
+<td align="left"><a href="https://reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/sidebarsubs/#wiki_requests_.26amp.3B_assistance">Requests &amp; Assistance</a></td>
+<td align="left"><a href="https://reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/sidebarsubs/#wiki_what_is_this______">Help Me Identify This</a></td>
+</tr>
+<tr>
+<td align="left"><a href="https://reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/sidebarsubs/#wiki_reddit.2Fmeta">Reddit/Meta</a></td>
+<td align="left"><a href="https://reddit.com/r/AskReddit/wiki/sidebarsubs/#wiki_find_subreddits">Find Subreddits</a></td>
+</tr>
+</tbody></table>
+
+<h2></h2>
+
+<h3>Ever read the reddiquette? <a href="https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette">Take a peek!</a></h3>
+
+<p><a href="#/RES_SR_Config/NightModeCompatible"></a></p>
+</div>
+</div></form><div class="bottom"><span class="age">a community for&#32;<time title="Fri Jan 25 03:52:15 2008 UTC" datetime="2008-01-25T03:52:15+00:00">18 years</time></span></div></div></div><div class='spacer'></div><div class='spacer'><div class="sidecontentbox " ><div class="title"><h1>MODERATORS</h1></div><ul class="content"><li class="message-button centered"><a class="c-btn c-btn-primary login-required" href="/message/compose/?to=/r/AskReddit">message the mods</a></li></ul></div></div><div class='spacer'><div class="read-next-container"><aside class="read-next"><header class="read-next-header"><div class="read-next-header-title">discussions in&#32;<a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/?ref=readnext" >r/AskReddit</a></div><nav class="read-next-nav read-next-nav-left"><span class="read-next-button prev">&lt;</span><span class="read-next-button next">&gt;</span></nav><div class="read-next-nav read-next-nav-right"><span class="read-next-dismiss">X</span></div></header><div class="read-next-list"><div class="listing read-next-listing"><div class="listing-contents"><a id="read-next-link-t3_1twk04i" class="read-next-link may-blank" href="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/?ref=readnext"><div class="read-next-meta"><span class="score" title="552">552</span>&#32; &middot;&#32;<span class="comments">570 comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?</div></a><a id="read-next-link-t3_1twhn5k" class="read-next-link may-blank" href="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twhn5k/which_celebrity_in_their_prime_was_a_1010_in/?ref=readnext"><div class="read-next-meta"><span class="score" title="665">665</span>&#32; &middot;&#32;<span class="comments">2013 comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">Which celebrity, in their prime, was a 10/10 in attractiveness according to you?</div></a><a id="read-next-link-t3_1twg4qb" class="read-next-link may-blank" href="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twg4qb/what_is_a_luxury_lifestyle_choice_that_looks/?ref=readnext"><div class="read-next-meta"><span class="score" title="852">852</span>&#32; &middot;&#32;<span class="comments">675 comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">What is a luxury lifestyle choice that looks incredibly glamorous in photos but is actually completely miserable in reality?</div></a><a id="read-next-link-t3_1tw2uld" class="read-next-link may-blank" href="/r/AskReddit/comments/1tw2uld/anyone_who_surfed_the_early_web_between_19952010/?ref=readnext"><div class="read-next-meta"><span class="score" title="4875">4875</span>&#32; &middot;&#32;<span class="comments">15383 comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">Anyone who surfed the early web between 1995-2010. What’s the one website/app you still think about?</div></a><a id="read-next-link-t3_1twbkb3" class="read-next-link may-blank" href="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twbkb3/sen_bernie_sanders_announced_plans_to_introduce_a/?ref=readnext"><div class="read-next-meta"><span class="score" title="1009">1009</span>&#32; &middot;&#32;<span class="comments">475 comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">Sen. Bernie Sanders announced plans to introduce a bill designed to give the American public a 50% ownership stake in the country's largest AI companies. 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comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">What’s the most attractive physical trait in your opinion?</div></a></div></div></div></aside></div></div></div><a name="content"></a><div class="content" role="main" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Question" ><section class="infobar listingsignupbar"><a href="/login" class="login-required listingsignupbar__container"><h2 class="listingsignupbar__title">Welcome to Reddit,</h2><p class="listingsignupbar__desc">the front page of the internet.</p><div class="listingsignupbar__cta-container"><span class="c-btn c-btn-primary c-pull-left listingsignupbar__cta-button">Become a Redditor</span><p class="listingsignupbar__cta-desc">and join one of thousands of communities.</p></div></a><a href="#" class="listingsignupbar__close" title="close">&times;</a></section><style>body >.content .link .rank, .rank-spacer { width: 1.1ex } body >.content .link .midcol, .midcol-spacer { width: 4.1ex } .adsense-wrap { background-color: #eff7ff; 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class="rank"></span><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="score dislikes" title="552">552</div><div class="score unvoted" title="553">553</div><div class="score likes" title="554">554</div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="top-matter"><p class="title"><a class="title may-blank " data-event-action="title" href="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" tabindex="1" >What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?</a><div hidden itemprop="name">What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?</div>&#32;<span class="domain">(<a href="/r/AskReddit/">self.AskReddit</a>)</span></p><p class="tagline ">submitted&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:46:07 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:46:07+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&#32;by&#32;<a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/i_knoooow0" class="author may-blank id-t2_2flsbrix4v" >i_knoooow0</a><span class="userattrs"></span></p><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-event-action="comments" class="bylink comments may-blank" rel="nofollow" >570 comments</a></li><li class="share"><a class="post-sharing-button" href="javascript: void 0;">share</a></li><li class="link-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="#">save</a></li><li><form action="/post/hide" method="post" class="state-button hide-button"><input type="hidden" name="executed" value="hidden" /><span><a href="javascript:void(0)" class=" " data-event-action="hide" onclick="change_state(this, 'hide', 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commentsignupbar"><div class="commentsignupbar__container"><a href="/login" class="login-required commentsignupbar__link-wrapper"><textarea class="commentsignupbar__textarea"></textarea><div class="commentsignupbar__textarea-above"><h2 class="commentsignupbar__title">Want to add to the discussion?</h2><p class="commentsignupbar__desc">Post a comment!</p><div class="commentsignupbar__cta-container"><span class="c-btn c-btn-primary commentsignupbar__cta-button">Create an account</span></div></div></a></div></section><span hidden itemprop="answerCount">78</span><div id="siteTable_t3_1twk04i" class="sitetable nestedlisting"><div class=" thing id-t1_opor89g noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opor89g" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opor89g" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="acceptedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="ACE_Wrap" data-author-fullname="t2_1s0qp9ftoc" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor89g/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opor89g"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ACE_Wrap" class="author may-blank id-t2_1s0qp9ftoc" >ACE_Wrap</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">887</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor89g/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="886">886 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="887">887 points</span><span class="score likes" title="888">888 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:52:08 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:52:08+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(147 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opor89gp87"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opor89g"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>As long as a few basic needs - like food and water - are secured, nothing much. Once that stops though, all options are on the table.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor89g/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor89g/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opor89g"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opor89g" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opos0y8 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opos0y8" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opos0y8" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="stop_deleting_plz" data-author-fullname="t2_1nldle0boe" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opos0y8/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opos0y8"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/stop_deleting_plz" class="author may-blank id-t2_1nldle0boe" >stop_deleting_plz</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="467">467 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="468">468 points</span><span class="score likes" title="469">469 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:57:40 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:57:40+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(76 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opos0y8ppl"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opos0y8"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Well the billionaires need a trillion gallons of water to cool their shiny new surveillance centers, so it might be more likely than you think!</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opos0y8/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opos0y8/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opor89g" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opos0y8"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opos0y8" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppi6ty noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppi6ty" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppi6ty" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="idiocy_incarnate" data-author-fullname="t2_odi1x" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppi6ty/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppi6ty"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/idiocy_incarnate" class="author may-blank id-t2_odi1x" >idiocy_incarnate</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:28:33 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:28:33+00:00" class="live-timestamp">55 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(26 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppi6tybiu"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppi6ty"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>with a little bit of foresight they would build the data centers on the coast, use seawater for cooling, and the heat generated by the data center to both desalinate the seawater and recover salt and minerals from it.</p>
+
+<p>Fat chance of that though, it requires a longer term view that is not compatible with quarterly profit reports.</p>
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+<p>nd the heat generated by the data center to both desalinate the seawater and recover salt and minerals from it.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>Do these AI chips run hot enough for that, or does desalination work at lower temps than I think it does? Most PC hardware doesn&#39;t like temps anywhere near hot enough to boil water</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+<p>If you have access to free and clean water now, I’d suggest start filling up bottles.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>Yea but you cant drink that unless its sanitized and stored properly. I k ow theres a process for treating it but idk what that is. </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_opplb3z" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opplb3z" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="InNominePasta" data-author-fullname="t2_6t7wi" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opplb3z/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opplb3z"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/InNominePasta" class="author may-blank id-t2_6t7wi" >InNominePasta</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:43:53 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:43:53+00:00" class="live-timestamp">39 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opplb3zzr4"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opplb3z"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Invest in a bunch of Sawyer filters. Then you just need fresh water, regardless of how clean it is. Streams, puddles, whatever </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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How many people are reliant on cars to get food? Or goes beyond just driving to the grocery store or walmart. What happens when the price of bread is 30 bucks a loaf because there&#39;s no gas to ship it.</p>
+
+<p>Walmart, Costco, Kroger, and Aldi dominate groceries. Sure, there are some franchise Price Choppers or whatever, but most of America buys their food at massive chains. What happens when Walmart can&#39;t ship it to Suburban and rural America? </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>Robo taxis on subscription are the future. </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfh1f/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfh1f/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoyy8m" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppfh1f"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opph1zy noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opph1zy" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opph1zy" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="mikepi1999" data-author-fullname="t2_17ih7n" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opph1zy/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opph1zy"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/mikepi1999" class="author may-blank id-t2_17ih7n" >mikepi1999</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:22:56 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:22:56+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opph1zy216"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opph1zy"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>This is a fact.  The insurance companies are going to force the issue.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppei1c/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppei1c/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppe27a" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppei1c"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppei1c" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppmv74 noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppmv74" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppmv74" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="askthepeanutgallery" data-author-fullname="t2_kibz41q" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppmv74/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppmv74"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/askthepeanutgallery" class="author may-blank id-t2_kibz41q" >askthepeanutgallery</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:51:20 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:51:20+00:00" class="live-timestamp">32 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppmv74ekh"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppmv74"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>How many of us can even keep houseplants alive?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppmv74/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppmv74/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppei1c" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppmv74"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppnu7h noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppnu7h" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppnu7h" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Jaereth" data-author-fullname="t2_6fyj2" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppnu7h/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppnu7h"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Jaereth" class="author may-blank id-t2_6fyj2" >Jaereth</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:56:00 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:56:00+00:00" class="live-timestamp">27 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppnu7h6bd"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppnu7h"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Yup. Auto, Medical, Banking, Construction, Big Tech, etc.</p>
+
+<p>These are the &quot;great houses&quot; of the US now and the respective oligarchs aren&#39;t going to let their money machines get disrupted.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppnu7h/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppnu7h/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppe27a" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppnu7h"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppfju5 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppfju5" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppfju5" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Ki-to-Life-5054" data-author-fullname="t2_jrae8ac9" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfju5/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppfju5"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Ki-to-Life-5054" class="author may-blank id-t2_jrae8ac9" >Ki-to-Life-5054</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:15:24 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:15:24+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppfju5d5i"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppfju5"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>If working people all have to move to cities, corporations will have to let people work remotely so that office space can be repurposed as housing. People will think they are doing ok. Then, our govt will sell off farmland to the Chinese and for data centers. Depopulating rural areas will make someone money. It will be the beginning of those hellscapes we see in scifi movies.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfju5/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfju5/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oposxbx" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppfju5"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opppqk4 noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opppqk4" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opppqk4" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opppqk4" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_opppqk4,t1_opotk98,t1_oppe6xe', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(19 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opppqk4"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp2eef noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp2eef" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp2eef" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="jammythesandwich" data-author-fullname="t2_afn36zcv" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp2eef/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp2eef"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/jammythesandwich" class="author may-blank id-t2_afn36zcv" >jammythesandwich</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="12">12 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="13">13 points</span><span class="score likes" title="14">14 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:04:09 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:04:09+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp2eefs1m"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp2eef"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>This and a black economy will sprout wings alongside rises in civil unrest and organised crime</p>
+
+<p>It’s not going to be pretty thats for sure</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp2eef/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp2eef/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opor89g" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp2eef"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp0h61 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp0h61" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp0h61" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Dear-me113" data-author-fullname="t2_fenn15zq" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0h61/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp0h61"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Dear-me113" class="author may-blank id-t2_fenn15zq" >Dear-me113</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="8">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="9">9 points</span><span class="score likes" title="10">10 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:52:45 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:52:45+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(5 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp0h616sp"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp0h61"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Bread and circuses?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0h61/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0h61/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opor89g" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0h61"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp0h61" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp74y0 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp74y0" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp74y0" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="sambeau" data-author-fullname="t2_4wxuo" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp74y0/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp74y0"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/sambeau" class="author may-blank id-t2_4wxuo" >sambeau</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="33">33 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="34">34 points</span><span class="score likes" title="35">35 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:30:55 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:30:55+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp74y0gqg"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp74y0"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Ordinary people are priced out of the circuses. Ticketmaster saw to that. </p>
+
+<p>Meanwhile Netflix et al are doing the same to watching the circuses on a screen. </p>
+
+<p>The oligarchy aren’t thinking it through. They do not want a hungry <em>bored</em> populace. </p>
+
+<p>The Romans understood this; the French royalty did not. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp74y0/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp74y0/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp0h61" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp74y0"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp74y0" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppqejm noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oppqejm" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppqejm" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppqejm" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_oppqejm,t1_oppq2kv', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(2 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppqejm"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp5by4 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp5by4" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp5by4" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="paigeguy" data-author-fullname="t2_bimlzx17" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp5by4/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp5by4"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/paigeguy" class="author may-blank id-t2_bimlzx17" >paigeguy</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:20:51 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:20:51+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp5by4sxn"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp5by4"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Scooter races and sex parties. </p>
+
+<p>&quot;Beggars in Spain&quot; - Nancy Kress</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp5by4/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp5by4/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp0h61" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp5by4"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppao74 noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oppao74" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppao74" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppao74" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_oppao74', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppao74"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp8051 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp8051" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp8051" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Ricky_the_Wizard" data-author-fullname="t2_15hkl9s3" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8051/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp8051"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Ricky_the_Wizard" class="author may-blank id-t2_15hkl9s3" >Ricky_the_Wizard</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="8">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="9">9 points</span><span class="score likes" title="10">10 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:35:47 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:35:47+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp8051zy4"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp8051"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Maslow&#39;s strikes again!</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8051/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8051/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opor89g" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp8051"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp8051" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp8051 noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opp8051" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp8051" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opp8051" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_opp8051', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp8051"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppdml5 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppdml5" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppdml5" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Marmaduke_Nelly" data-author-fullname="t2_dq2yaapr" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdml5/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppdml5"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Marmaduke_Nelly" class="author may-blank id-t2_dq2yaapr" >Marmaduke_Nelly</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score likes" title="8">8 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:05:43 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:05:43+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppdml52vu"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppdml5"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Why do you think all these billionaires are building bunkers?</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppkr5w" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_oppkr5w,t1_opp030w,t1_oppkzmo,t1_oppnmek,t1_oppqkkx,t1_opptaf6,t1_opptppt,t1_oppdnlq', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(8 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppkr5w"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoqtow noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoqtow" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoqtow" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="Only_Employer5690" data-author-fullname="t2_2cx3asa0xn" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqtow/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoqtow"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Only_Employer5690" class="author may-blank id-t2_2cx3asa0xn" >Only_Employer5690</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">313</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqtow/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="312">312 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="313">313 points</span><span class="score likes" title="314">314 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:49:17 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:49:17+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(15 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoqtowkzg"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoqtow"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>It usually builds slowly: higher debt, shared housing, delayed independence, and more reliance on support systems. Over time, it can also drive political pressure for policy changes.</p>
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I was friends with a married couple who lived in a $1M home in 2009 and stopped paying the mortgage when one of them got laid off, because the bank no longer had enough original documentation on hand to prove who actually owned the house. Their lawyer was able to drag the process out for a good 5 years IIRC, before their situation improved and then they just moved into a nice apartment. I don&#39;t believe their credit was even affected in the end and I seem to recall this being a tactic that quite a number of people were able to employ to avoid eviction. (Yes, this was in Florida.)</p>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>In 2008, i was making good money because every Pawnshop had so much inventory they were selling it for half of what I could sell it on ebay for. People were selling items to Pawnshops for next to nothing to get a little money. Most people now know they can get more by selling items themselves. </p>
+
+<p>There are still people with no financial sense out there, but harder times are making people smarter.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0bf4/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0bf4/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oposjig" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0bf4"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp0bf4" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp51x0 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp51x0" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp51x0" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="roodammy44" data-author-fullname="t2_366wv" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp51x0/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp51x0"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/roodammy44" class="author may-blank id-t2_366wv" >roodammy44</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="34">34 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="35">35 points</span><span class="score likes" title="36">36 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:19:18 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:19:18+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp51x00wy"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp51x0"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>It’s your fault you’re poor, but also if you inherited $100m you will never have to work a day and you will continue to get richer forever.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp51x0/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp51x0/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp0bf4" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp51x0"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp51x0" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opptnmu noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opptnmu" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opptnmu" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opptnmu" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_opptnmu,t1_oppou0i', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(2 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opptnmu"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppdq0h noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppdq0h" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppdq0h" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Wurm42" data-author-fullname="t2_3e3ec" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdq0h/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppdq0h"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Wurm42" class="author may-blank id-t2_3e3ec" >Wurm42</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="20">20 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="21">21 points</span><span class="score likes" title="22">22 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:06:13 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:06:13+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppdq0hjxb"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppdq0h"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Second this. We&#39;re headed toward an indenture system.</p>
+
+<p>You work for one of a handful of mega-corporations. You live in a company apartment, shop at a company store, and you can only leave if you can pay off your debt to the company...which will never happen. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdq0h/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdq0h/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oposjig" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppdq0h"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppdq0h" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppf90n noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppf90n" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppf90n" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Unhappy-Homework-812" data-author-fullname="t2_1oe7vdnz48" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppf90n/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppf90n"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Unhappy-Homework-812" class="author may-blank id-t2_1oe7vdnz48" >Unhappy-Homework-812</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:13:54 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:13:54+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppf90nfm3"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppf90n"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Only way out of that is to find a way to generate money yourself and live frugally. Find a NEED in the world and fill it so people do not need to rely on giant corporations. That is the ONLY way out or back. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppf90n/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppf90n/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppdq0h" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppf90n"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppf90n" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppg700 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppg700" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppg700" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="SlinkyAdmiral" data-author-fullname="t2_21wwbypgei" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppg700/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppg700"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/SlinkyAdmiral" class="author may-blank id-t2_21wwbypgei" >SlinkyAdmiral</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score likes" title="8">8 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:18:40 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:18:40+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppg700i6x"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppg700"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Or crime.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppg700/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppg700/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppf90n" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppg700"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp5a1t noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp5a1t" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp5a1t" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="putin_my_ass" data-author-fullname="t2_61k4l" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp5a1t/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp5a1t"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/putin_my_ass" class="author may-blank id-t2_61k4l" >putin_my_ass</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="14">14 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="15">15 points</span><span class="score likes" title="16">16 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:20:34 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:20:34+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(4 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp5a1tppu"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp5a1t"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>There are historical examples where the lower class removes the parasite classes. Capitally.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp5a1t/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp5a1t/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oposjig" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp5a1t"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp5a1t" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppifzs noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppifzs" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppifzs" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Arviay" data-author-fullname="t2_qr8c5" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppifzs/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppifzs"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Arviay" class="author may-blank id-t2_qr8c5" >Arviay</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:29:48 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:29:48+00:00" class="live-timestamp">53 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppifzscka"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppifzs"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Were the capas detated?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppifzs/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppifzs/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp5a1t" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppifzs"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppj5nj noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oppj5nj" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppj5nj" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppj5nj" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_oppj5nj', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(3 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppj5nj"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opppsz3 noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opppsz3" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opppsz3" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opppsz3" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_opppsz3', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opppsz3"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opouda1 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opouda1" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opouda1" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="GoatSage777" data-author-fullname="t2_1ydqkdd4" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouda1/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opouda1"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/GoatSage777" class="author may-blank id-t2_1ydqkdd4" >GoatSage777</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">138</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouda1/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="137">137 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="138">138 points</span><span class="score likes" title="139">139 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:13:37 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:13:37+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(20 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opouda1u6d"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opouda1"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>A lot of redditor fantasy in these comments. </p>
+
+<p>The truth is that whatever happens won&#39;t be cinematic like some dystopian young adult movie nor like anything hundreds of years ago, especially in major first world countries.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouda1/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouda1/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opouda1"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opouda1" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opowh1q noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opowh1q" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opowh1q" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Rapidzigs" data-author-fullname="t2_cyqqv" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowh1q/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opowh1q"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Rapidzigs" class="author may-blank id-t2_cyqqv" >Rapidzigs</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="63">63 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="64">64 points</span><span class="score likes" title="65">65 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:27:36 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:27:36+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(5 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opowh1qb0l"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opowh1q"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Yup most likely things will get bad enough that people start yelling about. That will cause a stop gap short term relief measure by the government which will quiet everyone down for a bit. Rinse and repeat. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowh1q/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowh1q/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opouda1" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opowh1q"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opowh1q" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppdyrs noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppdyrs" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppdyrs" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Konzacrafter" data-author-fullname="t2_676ni" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdyrs/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppdyrs"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Konzacrafter" class="author may-blank id-t2_676ni" >Konzacrafter</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="14">14 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="15">15 points</span><span class="score likes" title="16">16 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:07:28 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:07:28+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppdyrsnvl"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppdyrs"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Everyone looks to France as the example for “get shit done” protesting, but this is exactly what plays out there. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdyrs/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdyrs/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opowh1q" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppdyrs"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppdyrs" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppn40i noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppn40i" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppn40i" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Lbailey32" data-author-fullname="t2_iw49j" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppn40i/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppn40i"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Lbailey32" class="author may-blank id-t2_iw49j" >Lbailey32</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:52:30 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:52:30+00:00" class="live-timestamp">31 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppn40i2x7"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppn40i"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>You have a great point, and I know France is incredibly different than the United States buuuut they do have strong worker protections, maternity leave, nationalized healthcare, required PTO, good public transportation and those are just the things I can think of off the top of my head that I WISH the US had.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppn40i/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppn40i/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppdyrs" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppn40i"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp8ggh noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opp8ggh" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp8ggh" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opp8ggh" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_opp8ggh', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(3 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp8ggh"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opphghe noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_opphghe" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opphghe" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Gsusruls" data-author-fullname="t2_dj1i3" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opphghe/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opphghe"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Gsusruls" class="author may-blank id-t2_dj1i3" >Gsusruls</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:24:56 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:24:56+00:00" class="live-timestamp">58 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(3 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opphghem9q"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opphghe"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>reddit has deeply romanticized notions of revolution.</p>
+
+<p>Revolution is ugly. Revolution kills. Revolution ends everything you have. It changes the landscape, the whole landscape. And in all likelihood, you might not be here on the other side. Generally, revolution isn&#39;t for you and your benefit; it&#39;s for your grandkids.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opovu9q/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opovu9q/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opot7lt" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opovu9q"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opovu9q" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoxms3 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoxms3" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoxms3" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="False_Perspective854" data-author-fullname="t2_6etkh198" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoxms3/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoxms3"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/False_Perspective854" class="author may-blank id-t2_6etkh198" >False_Perspective854</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="34">34 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="35">35 points</span><span class="score likes" title="36">36 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:35:11 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:35:11+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(4 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoxms3ix8"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoxms3"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>What do you think happens when you have no money?</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfbta/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfbta/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoxms3" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppfbta"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppfbta" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppkp4d noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppkp4d" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppkp4d" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="ExpertExpert" data-author-fullname="t2_d7ij5" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppkp4d/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppkp4d"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ExpertExpert" class="author may-blank id-t2_d7ij5" >ExpertExpert</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:40:54 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:40:54+00:00" class="live-timestamp">42 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppkp4d3xx"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppkp4d"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>benefits</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>sir, this is america</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppkp4d/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppkp4d/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppfbta" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppkp4d"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppkp4d" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppkp4d noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oppkp4d" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppkp4d" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppkp4d" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_oppkp4d', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppkp4d"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp4mr8 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp4mr8" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp4mr8" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Sea_Particular9266" data-author-fullname="t2_1ebn9ib17o" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp4mr8/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp4mr8"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Sea_Particular9266" class="author may-blank id-t2_1ebn9ib17o" >Sea_Particular9266</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="21">21 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="22">22 points</span><span class="score likes" title="23">23 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:16:55 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:16:55+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp4mr8v84"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp4mr8"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>You become an incel and post relentlessly on reddit </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp4mr8/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp4mr8/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoxms3" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp4mr8"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppfh00 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppfh00" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppfh00" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Unhappy-Homework-812" data-author-fullname="t2_1oe7vdnz48" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppfh00/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppfh00"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Unhappy-Homework-812" class="author may-blank id-t2_1oe7vdnz48" >Unhappy-Homework-812</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score likes" title="8">8 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:15:00 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:15:00+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(3 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppfh00eto"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppfh00"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I did that like 6 months ago. I buy a loaf of bread, ham, grow lettuce and tomato. maybe buy 2 boxes of noodles, milk and bananas. Set for the week </p>
+</div>
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font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opplhqr" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_opplhqr', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opplhqr"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oposm9k noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oposm9k" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oposm9k" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="Loki-L" data-author-fullname="t2_6znar" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oposm9k/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oposm9k"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Loki-L" class="author may-blank id-t2_6znar" >Loki-L</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">25</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oposm9k/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="24">24 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="25">25 points</span><span class="score likes" title="26">26 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:01:39 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:01:39+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oposm9kbl7"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oposm9k"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>They go into debt and the debt gets sold on as an investment and then they can&#39;t pay and the people who invested in the debt also can&#39;t pay anymore and the government bails out billionaires with money future generations will have to pay in taxes.</p>
+</div>
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+
+<p>You&#39;ll have beautiful neighborhoods and favellas and a lot of crime. There will be a lot of homeless people and many people living in micro/cage apartments like they do in Hong Kong. People will scrape by with service jobs or micro factories like in India. </p>
+
+<p>As long as they are fed...  When populations start going hungry is when you get revolution... Which often makes things worse.</p>
+</div>
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font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppre0l" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_oppre0l', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppre0l"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoqth4 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoqth4" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoqth4" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="ElHeim" data-author-fullname="t2_r572h" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqth4/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoqth4"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ElHeim" class="author may-blank id-t2_r572h" >ElHeim</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">142</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqth4/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="141">141 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="142">142 points</span><span class="score likes" title="143">143 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:49:14 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:49:14+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(36 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoqth48cx"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoqth4"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>Look at what happened in the past . </p>
+
+<p>Just make sure you&#39;re not part of the 1% (or look like it) when that happens</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqth4/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqth4/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoqth4"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoqth4" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opowo2e noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opowo2e" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opowo2e" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Pirate_Princess_87" data-author-fullname="t2_9dyw57eww" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowo2e/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opowo2e"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Pirate_Princess_87" class="author may-blank id-t2_9dyw57eww" >Pirate_Princess_87</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="26">26 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="27">27 points</span><span class="score likes" title="28">28 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:28:53 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:28:53+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(4 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opowo2e5ip"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opowo2e"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Depends. There are examples from the past where there was a violent revolution to overthrow the ruling class. There have also been examples from history where the peasants just quietly starved to death.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowo2e/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowo2e/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoqth4" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opowo2e"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opowo2e" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoxqu5 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoxqu5" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoxqu5" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="iamtehryan" data-author-fullname="t2_y7fx6" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoxqu5/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoxqu5"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/iamtehryan" class="author may-blank id-t2_y7fx6" >iamtehryan</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="8">8 points</span><span class="score likes" title="9">9 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:35:55 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:35:55+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoxqu52xn"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoxqu5"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>One of these is definitely better than the other.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoxqu5/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoxqu5/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opowo2e" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoxqu5"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoxqu5" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp05u0 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp05u0" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp05u0" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="09232022" data-author-fullname="t2_uejy4mpo" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp05u0/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp05u0"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/09232022" class="author may-blank id-t2_uejy4mpo" >09232022</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="11">11 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="12">12 points</span><span class="score likes" title="13">13 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:50:52 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:50:52+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp05u0rvi"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp05u0"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>The only one that follows within reddit TOS though is peasants starving to death. That tracks. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp05u0/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp05u0/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoxqu5" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp05u0"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppg4rz noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oppg4rz" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppg4rz" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppg4rz" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_oppg4rz,t1_opoxn5r', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(2 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppg4rz"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opovrl4 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opovrl4" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opovrl4" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="porgy_tirebiter" data-author-fullname="t2_aiujq" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opovrl4/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opovrl4"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/porgy_tirebiter" class="author may-blank id-t2_aiujq" >porgy_tirebiter</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="122">122 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="123">123 points</span><span class="score likes" title="124">124 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:22:56 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:22:56+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(15 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opovrl4wvc"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opovrl4"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>There are countries all over the world that have long had a large poor underclass, and no violent revolution at all. It’s not 1% mega rich and 99% desperately poor, but still there are huge, sprawling slums and townships and favelas. That’s what it’ll be in the US, and everyone will accept it like they do in Brazil and India and the Philippines and South Africa. There will be no uprising against the haves. </p>
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+</div>
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+<p>Maybe modern USA will accept the conditions, but I don’t think modern France would.</p>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>Edit: Oh yeah there is a woman down the road from me that doesn&#39;t live with power. Given everyone out here is on well water, that means no water, either. Her house looks fine, so it makes me wonder how many people are living like this that most aren&#39;t aware of.</p>
+</div>
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+
+<p>The French elite’s propaganda is just different, that’s all. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp480v/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp480v/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opovrl4" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp480v"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppfoe1 noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oppfoe1" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppfoe1" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppfoe1" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_oppfoe1,t1_opp6x2e,t1_oppjxv2,t1_oppi6li', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(4 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppfoe1"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoztsg noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoztsg" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoztsg" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Oilfan94" data-author-fullname="t2_cxd3o" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoztsg/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoztsg"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Oilfan94" class="author may-blank id-t2_cxd3o" >Oilfan94</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:48:50 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:48:50+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoztsg45f"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoztsg"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p><em>Or….try to become the 0.0001%……because those fyckers have been</em>   <strong><em>apocalypse planning for decades.</em></strong>  </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoztsg/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoztsg/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoqth4" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoztsg"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oporijy noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oporijy" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oporijy" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="CactaurSnapper" data-author-fullname="t2_16v3s7" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oporijy/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oporijy"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/CactaurSnapper" class="author may-blank id-t2_16v3s7" >CactaurSnapper</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="17">17 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="18">18 points</span><span class="score likes" title="19">19 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:54:06 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:54:06+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oporijy2ky"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oporijy"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>In the Russian example farmers were eventually considered rich. Which led to famine of course.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oporijy/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oporijy/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoqth4" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oporijy"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oporijy" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oporijy noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oporijy" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oporijy" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oporijy" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_oporijy', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oporijy"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opov3du noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opov3du" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opov3du" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="King0fthewasteland" data-author-fullname="t2_602q9lmn" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opov3du/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opov3du"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/King0fthewasteland" class="author may-blank id-t2_602q9lmn" >King0fthewasteland</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score likes" title="7">7 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:18:31 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:18:31+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(3 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opov3du3xk"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opov3du"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>It won&#39;t. If it was going to happend is would have a long time ago. People will just sit and take it</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>I&#39;m honestly shocked Luigi was such a one-off.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp3f4e/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp3f4e/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp3f4e"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp3f4e" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp3f4e noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opp3f4e" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp3f4e" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opp3f4e" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_opp3f4e', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp3f4e"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp0hhm noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp0hhm" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp0hhm" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="Masterweedo" data-author-fullname="t2_1cvbuq0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0hhm/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp0hhm"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Masterweedo" class="author may-blank id-t2_1cvbuq0" >Masterweedo</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">13</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0hhm/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="12">12 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="13">13 points</span><span class="score likes" title="14">14 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:52:48 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:52:48+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp0hhmc8s"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp0hhm"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>Judging by the protests in 2020, and the ones more recently, I fully expect and protests to become mass casualty events where law enforcement or even the military massacres the protestors. The government and oligarchs appear to be preparing for it. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0hhm/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0hhm/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0hhm"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp0hhm" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp0hhm noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opp0hhm" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp0hhm" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opp0hhm" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_opp0hhm', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0hhm"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp8nvt noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp8nvt" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp8nvt" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="OgreMk5" data-author-fullname="t2_r6maz" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8nvt/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp8nvt"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/OgreMk5" class="author may-blank id-t2_r6maz" >OgreMk5</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">12</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8nvt/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="11">11 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="12">12 points</span><span class="score likes" title="13">13 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:39:26 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:39:26+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp8nvt3nc"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp8nvt"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>What will happen has been the ultra-wealthy&#39;s plans all along. Re-institute debt slavery. </p>
+
+<p>Everyone works for them all the time and all the money comes back to them all the time. </p>
+
+<p>Amazon is almost a company store, since you can get almost anything you need from them. You aren&#39;t required to if you work there, but it&#39;s &quot;so convenient&quot;...</p>
+
+<p>Musk has already propose company housing for his &quot;Starbase&quot;. Sure, you pay rent to the company you work for. And what happens when you turn in your resignation letter? You&#39;re instantly homeless. They lock the door remotely, change the code, and you&#39;ll have to sue to get your stuff... which you can&#39;t afford. Musk will literally use the money you paid him to pay lawyers to keep you from getting your stuff. </p>
+
+<p>Slavery... in all but name. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8nvt/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8nvt/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp8nvt"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opouf9d noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opouf9d" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opouf9d" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="ProfessionalReach418" data-author-fullname="t2_24kgpeemvm" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouf9d/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opouf9d"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ProfessionalReach418" class="author may-blank id-t2_24kgpeemvm" >ProfessionalReach418</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">33</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouf9d/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="32">32 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="33">33 points</span><span class="score likes" title="34">34 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:13:59 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:13:59+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opouf9dlw9"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opouf9d"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>Holy larp in the comments.</p>
+
+<p>Realistically people stop working/buying things until the top budges.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouf9d/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouf9d/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opouf9d"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opor1w4 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opor1w4" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opor1w4" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" itemprop="suggestedAnswer" itemscope itemtype="https://schema.org/Answer" data-author="TheMazoo" data-author-fullname="t2_r2pcy" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor1w4/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opor1w4"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/TheMazoo" class="author may-blank id-t2_r2pcy" >TheMazoo</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span hidden itemprop="upvoteCount">18</span><span hidden itemprop="downvoteCount">0</span><a hidden itemprop="url" href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor1w4/">Answer Link</a><span class="score dislikes" title="17">17 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="18">18 points</span><span class="score likes" title="19">19 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:50:53 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:50:53+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opor1w4jp5"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opor1w4"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " itemprop="text" ><div class="md"><p>Yahtzee! Isn&#39;t that kind of the goal? Price people out to gain leverage over their habits they&#39;re forced to adopt when they&#39;re backed into a corner. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor1w4/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opor1w4/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opor1w4"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oporjvo noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oporjvo" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oporjvo" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Gordon_frumann" data-author-fullname="t2_2jfiq895" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oporjvo/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oporjvo"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Gordon_frumann" class="author may-blank id-t2_2jfiq895" >Gordon_frumann</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="8">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="9">9 points</span><span class="score likes" title="10">10 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:54:21 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:54:21+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oporjvoyzc"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oporjvo"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Once catastrophic food shortages star happening, that&#39;s when the guillotines get pulled out.  </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oporjvo/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oporjvo/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oporjvo"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oporjvo" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oporjvo noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oporjvo" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oporjvo" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oporjvo" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_oporjvo', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(2 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oporjvo"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opotncd noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opotncd" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opotncd" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="CasUalNtT" data-author-fullname="t2_nujob" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opotncd/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opotncd"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/CasUalNtT" class="author may-blank id-t2_nujob" >CasUalNtT</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="14">14 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="15">15 points</span><span class="score likes" title="16">16 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:08:44 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:08:44+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(5 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opotncdnmy"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opotncd"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>They will have to form an anarcho-syndicalist commune. </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>For the week?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp3roe/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp3roe/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opown5d" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp3roe"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppdbjc noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppdbjc" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppdbjc" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="fuzzybad" data-author-fullname="t2_yl36w" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppdbjc/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppdbjc"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/fuzzybad" class="author may-blank id-t2_yl36w" >fuzzybad</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:04:07 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:04:07+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppdbjcau2"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppdbjc"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Dennis! There&#39;s some lovely filth down here!</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8myy/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8myy/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oporyfs" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp8myy"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoyt6u noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoyt6u" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoyt6u" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Psychological_Pen765" data-author-fullname="t2_aaxnvnu5" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyt6u/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoyt6u"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Psychological_Pen765" class="author may-blank id-t2_aaxnvnu5" >Psychological_Pen765</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score likes" title="7">7 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:42:38 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:42:38+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoyt6u07n"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoyt6u"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Republicans will host UFC fights on top of the White house ballroom for the masses to forget their troubles </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyt6u/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyt6u/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoyt6u"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoyt6u" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoyt6u noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opoyt6u" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoyt6u" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opoyt6u" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_opoyt6u', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoyt6u"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp0ng1 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp0ng1" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp0ng1" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="DJBudGreen" data-author-fullname="t2_b6ac5" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0ng1/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp0ng1"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/DJBudGreen" class="author may-blank id-t2_b6ac5" >DJBudGreen</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score likes" title="8">8 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:53:47 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:53:47+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp0ng1nt4"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp0ng1"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>You say you want a revolution? The billionaire class can&#39;t hire enough protection to prevent being dragged out into the streets once the lower class can&#39;t afford food.</p>
+
+<p>That&#39;s why they&#39;ll always keep some type of junk food cheap and the nutritional quality low. If you have a full belly, it&#39;s less relevant what it&#39;s filled with as long as you aren&#39;t hungry. </p>
+
+<p>And as long as our devices still do flashy things to keep us distracted from the hoovering of all the wealth to the very few, they will keep control over the lower class.</p>
+
+<p>Make the food and distractions unaffordable and we&#39;ll snap like a twig.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0ng1/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0ng1/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0ng1"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opork96 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opork96" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opork96" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="HaiKarate" data-author-fullname="t2_5p0kp" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opork96/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opork96"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/HaiKarate" class="author may-blank id-t2_5p0kp" >HaiKarate</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="17">17 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="18">18 points</span><span class="score likes" title="19">19 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:54:26 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:54:26+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opork96kp1"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opork96"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>The crime rate goes up and whole sections of your city become unliveable for decent folks just trying to get by.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opork96/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opork96/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opork96"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opork96" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opork96 noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opork96" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opork96" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opork96" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_opork96', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opork96"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoul9a noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoul9a" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoul9a" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Serentyr" data-author-fullname="t2_k87l235q" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoul9a/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoul9a"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Serentyr" class="author may-blank id-t2_k87l235q" >Serentyr</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:15:06 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:15:06+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoul9a1v3"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoul9a"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Historically, rebellion, conflict, strife, destruction of property. </p>
+
+<p>In an age of fledging AI, autonomous factories and personnel…  the leverage that the masses had beyond simple numerical advantage is far weaker. </p>
+
+<p>I think it’s harder to predict and rely on history, where the playing field was significantly more level and the power structures were functionally reliant on the cooperation (through whatever means acquired)  of the work force. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoul9a/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoul9a/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoul9a"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoqqsc noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoqqsc" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoqqsc" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="RosyRainbows" data-author-fullname="t2_2eptwaj3n5" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqqsc/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoqqsc"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/RosyRainbows" class="author may-blank id-t2_2eptwaj3n5" >RosyRainbows</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="20">20 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="21">21 points</span><span class="score likes" title="22">22 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:48:42 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:48:42+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(7 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoqqsceko"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoqqsc"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Lot of wealthy people and politicians loose their heads. History has a way of repeating</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqqsc/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqqsc/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoqqsc"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoqqsc" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opotepc noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opotepc" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opotepc" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="blooperonthestoop" data-author-fullname="t2_4psphxh0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opotepc/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opotepc"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/blooperonthestoop" class="author may-blank id-t2_4psphxh0" >blooperonthestoop</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="13">13 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="14">14 points</span><span class="score likes" title="15">15 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:07:06 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:07:06+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opotepcrg1"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opotepc"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>lose</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opotepc/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opotepc/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoqqsc" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opotepc"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opotepc" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp0fey noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp0fey" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp0fey" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="qrseek" data-author-fullname="t2_yb85z" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0fey/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp0fey"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/qrseek" class="author may-blank id-t2_yb85z" >qrseek</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:52:27 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:52:27+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp0feyfhn"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp0fey"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Their heads will also be loose</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0fey/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp0fey/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opotepc" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0fey"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opotcb8 noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_opotcb8" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opotcb8" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_opotcb8" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'c1:t1_opotcb8,t1_opor089', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(5 replies)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opotcb8"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opovbn8 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opovbn8" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opovbn8" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Yzelski" data-author-fullname="t2_tfe7k" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opovbn8/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opovbn8"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Yzelski" class="author may-blank id-t2_tfe7k" >Yzelski</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:20:02 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:20:02+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opovbn86if"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opovbn8"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>When demand is lower than supply, prices fall. Basic economics. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opovbn8/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opovbn8/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opovbn8"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoyfqj noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoyfqj" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoyfqj" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Dale_Cooper_II" data-author-fullname="t2_7iixmdid" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyfqj/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoyfqj"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Dale_Cooper_II" class="author may-blank id-t2_7iixmdid" >Dale_Cooper_II</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:40:17 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:40:17+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoyfqjbxj"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoyfqj"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Read Ready Player 1.</p>
+
+<p>Thats where we&#39;re heading!</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyfqj/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyfqj/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoyfqj"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoyri3 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoyri3" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoyri3" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="SwissChzMcGeez" data-author-fullname="t2_1q48nnldz0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyri3/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoyri3"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/SwissChzMcGeez" class="author may-blank id-t2_1q48nnldz0" >SwissChzMcGeez</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:42:21 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:42:21+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoyri39og"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoyri3"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Watch the movie Elysium.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyri3/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoyri3/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoyri3"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppat5b noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppat5b" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppat5b" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Nearbyatom" data-author-fullname="t2_tzc1o" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppat5b/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppat5b"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Nearbyatom" class="author may-blank id-t2_tzc1o" >Nearbyatom</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:51:00 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:51:00+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppat5bqgu"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppat5b"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Crime goes up.  When people get desperate, they have nothing to lose.  </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppat5b/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppat5b/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppat5b"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppat5b" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppazga noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppazga" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppazga" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="tjlazer79" data-author-fullname="t2_18357qncc0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppazga/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppazga"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/tjlazer79" class="author may-blank id-t2_18357qncc0" >tjlazer79</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:51:55 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:51:55+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppazgaaw2"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppazga"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Yep.  I agree.  You reach a point where so many people are desperate, they have nothing to lose, and they will get violent and revolt.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppazga/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppazga/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppat5b" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppazga"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppe13c noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppe13c" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppe13c" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Kiyohara" data-author-fullname="t2_omwvq" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppe13c/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppe13c"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Kiyohara" class="author may-blank id-t2_omwvq" >Kiyohara</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:07:48 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:07:48+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppe13c3hd"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppe13c"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>In general across all of history, Humans tend to be fairly compliant and passive towards the heads of their society. We&#39;re a tribal species after all, and the majority have ingrained desires to help each other and work together.</p>
+
+<p>However, in nearly every single situation where the populace gets hit by some event that makes it nearly difficult or impossible to get feed themselves, house themselves, or fight off a plague they have either taken the choice to move else where (become refugees) or over throw their leaders and start over (so rebellion).</p>
+
+<p>But that bar for &quot;nearly difficult&quot; is pretty high and the choice between becoming a refugee and a rebel is really based on realistic it is to perform each action. In societies where movement is controlled or restricted, they tend to revolt. In societies where the ruling state has a perceived insurmountable power, they flee. And it basically has to get tot he point where the average person&#39;s other choice is &quot;whelp, guess I&#39;ll just die then.&quot;</p>
+
+<p>Right now food is there and there are some options for those most in need. We&#39;re not at the stage where the choices are between fighting, fleeing, or dying. We&#39;re at the stage where we tighten our belts, cut expenses, and still have hope someone is going to turn it around. We&#39;re hardly at the famine stage here. We&#39;re not even at the &quot;hungry&quot; stage nation wide. Food is plentiful, if expensive. And if people have to choose between food, medicine, housing, and luxuries, we can still drop the luxuries entirely and possibly still cut back on something else too.</p>
+
+<p>And our leaders and wealthy know this (sort of). It&#39;s why they campaigned on food prices and the economy. Eventually they will be forced to take action and do something about it. But that time isn&#39;t now. It won&#39;t be until people are down to choosing between food and shelter (forget about medicine and luxuries).</p>
+
+<p>There&#39;s a reason why the phrase &quot;bread and circuses&quot; was invented: give the people just enough to eat and enough entertainment to be distracted and they won&#39;t revolt. That&#39;s too risky to attempt when you still have options. And we right now have TV and cheap entertainment. Practically every single person carries a phone that can play the entire collection of Earth&#39;s Entertainment if you look for it.</p>
+
+<p>But once we get to that final stage where we <em>don&#39;t</em> have options other than to fight or flee, well we&#39;ll see which direction most people take. Looking at the US past, we&#39;ve had migrations numerous times and several wars and revolutions (even if some were short lived) and armed conflict is not a stranger to these lands.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppe13c/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppe13c/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppe13c"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opppetx noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_opppetx" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opppetx" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="PM_me_ur_navel_girl" data-author-fullname="t2_pa595" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opppetx/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opppetx"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/PM_me_ur_navel_girl" class="author may-blank id-t2_pa595" >PM_me_ur_navel_girl</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:03:27 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:03:27+00:00" class="live-timestamp">20 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opppetxbmj"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opppetx"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>A business owner, a foreigner, and a blue-collar worker are sat round a table. In the middle is a plate with ten cookies.</p>
+
+<p>The business owner takes nine cookies for himself, then says to the blue-collar worker &quot;Watch out for that foreigner, he&#39;s got his eye on your last cookie!&quot;</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opppetx/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opppetx/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opppetx"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oporomt noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oporomt" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oporomt" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="WhiteSkyfire" data-author-fullname="t2_s71rk" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oporomt/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oporomt"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/WhiteSkyfire" class="author may-blank id-t2_s71rk" >WhiteSkyfire</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score likes" title="8">8 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:55:17 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:55:17+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oporomtk0g"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oporomt"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>The return of the workhouse, some politicians are actively working on it</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+<p>(Edited for $)</p>
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+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppax5m/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppax5m/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppax5m"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppru6s noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppru6s" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppru6s" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="ShittalkyCaps" data-author-fullname="t2_rueh9su23" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppru6s/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppru6s"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ShittalkyCaps" class="author may-blank id-t2_rueh9su23" >ShittalkyCaps</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:14:49 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:14:49+00:00" class="live-timestamp">8 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppru6sld6"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppru6s"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I don&#39;t see that happening. The powers that be will allow people to barely keep their head above water and sell them hope for a better future. Reason is, when people have nothing to lose, things would get real for real.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppru6s/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppru6s/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppru6s"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppru6s" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppru6s noncollapsed &#32; morechildren " id="thing_t1_oppru6s" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppru6s" data-type="morechildren" data-gildings="0" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"></p><span class="morecomments"><a style="font-size: smaller; font-weight: bold" class="button" id="more_t1_oppru6s" href="javascript:void(0)" onclick="return morechildren(this, 't3_1twk04i', 'confidence', 'd1:t1_oppru6s', 'False')">load more comments<span class="gray">&nbsp;(1 reply)</span></a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppru6s"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoqm2k noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoqm2k" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoqm2k" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Great-Ad-4270" data-author-fullname="t2_1qsue4rmxm" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqm2k/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoqm2k"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Great-Ad-4270" class="author cakeday may-blank id-t2_1qsue4rmxm" >Great-Ad-4270</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="cakeday" title="Great-Ad-4270 just celebrated a reddit birthday!" href="/user/Great-Ad-4270">&#x1F370;</a>]</span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="25">25 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="26">26 points</span><span class="score likes" title="27">27 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:47:47 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:47:47+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(3 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoqm2ksuf"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoqm2k"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>They stop being lazy enough to revolt hopefully </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqm2k/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opoqm2k/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoqm2k"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoqm2k" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp8pl1 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp8pl1" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp8pl1" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="thepeanutone" data-author-fullname="t2_4qio9vbb" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8pl1/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp8pl1"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/thepeanutone" class="author may-blank id-t2_4qio9vbb" >thepeanutone</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:39:41 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:39:41+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp8pl1cue"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp8pl1"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>What does a revolt (revolution? revolting?) look like? People keep saying that like I would know where to put the barricades, what I&#39;m barricading, and what my end goal is. </p>
+
+<p>This country runs on where the money goes. Short of staging a robbery of billionaires - how do we interrupt the flow of money?</p>
+
+<p>The quiet Revolution is maybe just not buying into all the corporate shit and making the world a better place, all at the same time. What if the whole country just stopped buying fragrance products? Like, no more Downy Unstoppables, no more car clip air fresheners, no more perfume or body spray. What would happen? Shit, we stopped paying for Disney for what? a week? and look what happened. </p>
+
+<p>What if we all stopped paying for streaming services and, I don&#39;t know, watched movies from the library for entertainment instead? Or we could get REALLY crazy and read books instead? </p>
+
+<p>What if we all decided &quot;This is where pain point number 1 hits?&quot;  And when you&#39;re still hurting, activate pain point #2. </p>
+
+<p>We are so spread out in America that the traditional picture of revolution is hard to recreate. We aren&#39;t really interested in going hungry or homeless, especially when it feels like we would be the only ones not going to work, so the general strike idea is a tough one to implement effectively. </p>
+
+<p>Corporations are widespread and easy for everyone to access/deny. </p>
+
+<p>I can&#39;t tell if I&#39;ve had too much coffee or if this is actually a good idea...</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8pl1/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opp8pl1/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoqm2k" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp8pl1"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opouitb noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opouitb" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opouitb" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="intheshade6" data-author-fullname="t2_7i69qhgh" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouitb/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opouitb"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/intheshade6" class="author may-blank id-t2_7i69qhgh" >intheshade6</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="8">8 points</span><span class="score likes" title="9">9 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:14:38 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:14:38+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opouitbl8v"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opouitb"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>What are you doing about it? Or are you saying it’s not your problem?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouitb/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opouitb/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoqm2k" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opouitb"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opouitb" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opowg1d noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opowg1d" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opowg1d" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Nope_______" data-author-fullname="t2_mscri" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowg1d/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opowg1d"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Nope_______" class="author may-blank id-t2_mscri" >Nope_______</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="8">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="9">9 points</span><span class="score likes" title="10">10 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:27:25 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:27:25+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opowg1djsk"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opowg1d"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>He&#39;s waiting for someone else to do it. Too lazy lmao</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowg1d/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowg1d/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="false" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opouitb" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opowg1d"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opowwq2 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opowwq2" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opowwq2" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="trustmeep" data-author-fullname="t2_3xz3s" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/opowwq2/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opowwq2"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/trustmeep" class="author may-blank id-t2_3xz3s" >trustmeep</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:30:29 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:30:29+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opowwq2mf6"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opowwq2"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Have they tried saying think you?</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+It’s because people keep buying a product as the price increases and keep buying it. </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>The upper classes continue their short-sighted &quot;line went up for past week, line go up forever&quot; planning, not understanding that the often large short term gains tend to be balanced out with losses soon afterwards when the consequences of the actions come around. So making the lower classes unable to afford what you sell never enters their mind until sales drop and they are scrambling to figure out why no one wants what they offer.</p>
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+<p>Until then we&#39;ll get by. We&#39;ll buy bikes because cars are too expensive, live 4 to a room, eat rice and beans for every meal. We&#39;ll learn to live with injury and sickness because the doctor is too expensive. We&#39;ll snag pigeons from their nests for thanksgiving dinner. </p>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>However, the world has never been this technologicaly advanced before. And the military and police have weapons and options that FAR outstripes anything the masses have. </p>
+
+<p>So while we have the numbers, it would still be fairly easy to keep us in line. Especially as we have been effectively trained to not fight back...</p>
+
+<p>Look at the route and Protest France has, what&#39;s currently going on in Albania. The US has nothing similar because we are all too busy working to stay alive, and hoping others will put themselves at risk. </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppo3vj/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppo3vj/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/" data-root="true" data-title="What is going to happen when the lower class will not be able to afford anything anymore?" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppo3vj"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppoa3x noncollapsed &#32; comment score-hidden " id="thing_t1_oppoa3x" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppoa3x" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="AskReddit" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/AskReddit" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2qh1i" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="jokemon" data-author-fullname="t2_32anv" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/AskReddit/comments/1twk04i/what_is_going_to_happen_when_the_lower_class_will/oppoa3x/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppoa3x"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/jokemon" class="author may-blank id-t2_32anv" >jokemon</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score-hidden" title="this subreddit hides comment scores for 60 minutes">[score hidden]</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:58:05 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:58:05+00:00" class="live-timestamp">25 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppoa3xlbf"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppoa3x"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>they dont really care, we live in a global society, they can simply go to their home in france and take advantage of their economy.</p>
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+</div>
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noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opn3cz8" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opn3cz8" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="teerre" data-author-fullname="t2_8fwoe" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/opn3cz8/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opn3cz8"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/teerre" class="author may-blank id-t2_8fwoe" >teerre</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="9">9 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="10">10 points</span><span class="score likes" title="11">11 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 03:06:03 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T03:06:03+00:00" class="live-timestamp">11 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opn3cz84k9"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opn3cz8"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Very cool blog! Great job explaining it. It was easy to follow </p>
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+
+<p>The usual example was that anything requiring<code>malloc</code> or<code>free</code> was too big and complicated.  Running an eBPF program certainly seems big and complicated enough.  But I guess kernel programmers are made of sterner stuff and they just have to provide for this?  I have a feeling that the eBPF hooks for performance events wouldn&#39;t be practical if they used the traditional approach.</p>
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+
+<p>Got a call a few months later saying &quot;random crashes&quot; are happening. </p>
+
+<p>Went in and found the interrupt now being used for the RTOS was a NMI interrupt, added a flag to check if interrupts were disabled and if so  ignored the NMI.</p>
+
+<p>Voila fixed. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/opnum32/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/opnum32/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/" data-root="true" data-title="A tale about fixing eBPF spinlock issues in the Linux kernel" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opnum32"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opo70xr noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opo70xr" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opo70xr" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="DowntownCap6204" data-author-fullname="t2_1xwi6z1g67" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/opo70xr/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opo70xr"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/DowntownCap6204" class="author may-blank id-t2_1xwi6z1g67" >DowntownCap6204</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 08:04:42 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T08:04:42+00:00" class="live-timestamp">6 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opo70xrwiq"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opo70xr"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>love when a bug goes from “profiler freezes the box” to a tiny eBPF repro and a 250ms spinlock timeout</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/opo70xr/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/opo70xr/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/" data-root="true" data-title="A tale about fixing eBPF spinlock issues in the Linux kernel" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opo70xr"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opmxx5r noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opmxx5r" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opmxx5r" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="drcforbin" data-author-fullname="t2_138cwz" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1tw9pl9/a_tale_about_fixing_ebpf_spinlock_issues_in_the/opmxx5r/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opmxx5r"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/drcforbin" class="author may-blank id-t2_138cwz" >drcforbin</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 02:34:06 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T02:34:06+00:00" class="live-timestamp">11 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opmxx5ro1r"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opmxx5r"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>TIL I love low level debugging porn. &quot;Yay! Job’s done. Or is it?&quot;</p>
+</div>
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ugc" >Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language</a>&#32;<span class="domain">(<a href="/domain/elixir-lang.org/">elixir-lang.org</a>)</span></p><p class="tagline ">submitted&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 07:14:11 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T07:14:11+00:00" class="live-timestamp">7 hours ago</time>&#32;by&#32;<a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/f311a" class="author may-blank id-t2_w0k80" >f311a</a><span class="userattrs"></span></p><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-event-action="comments" class="bylink comments may-blank" rel="nofollow" >60 comments</a></li><li class="share"><a class="post-sharing-button" href="javascript: void 0;">share</a></li><li class="link-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="#">save</a></li><li><form action="/post/hide" method="post" class="state-button hide-button"><input type="hidden" name="executed" 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data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo4t88/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opo4t88"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/markehammons" class="author may-blank id-t2_3aauwgn1" >markehammons</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="169">169 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="170">170 points</span><span class="score likes" title="171">171 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 07:45:21 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T07:45:21+00:00" class="live-timestamp">6 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(46 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opo4t88yqk"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opo4t88"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Why does this keep happening for dynamically typed languages? It feels to me like a vindication of static typing when all these dynamically typed languages keep bolting static types on after the fact.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo4t88/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo4t88/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="true" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opo4t88"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opo4t88" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opo9xwc noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opo9xwc" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opo9xwc" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="syklemil" data-author-fullname="t2_54rk6oy9" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo9xwc/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opo9xwc"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/syklemil" class="author may-blank id-t2_54rk6oy9" >syklemil</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="79">79 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="80">80 points</span><span class="score likes" title="81">81 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 08:30:31 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T08:30:31+00:00" class="live-timestamp">5 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opo9xwc2z6"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opo9xwc"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I think one part of an explanation could be that in the way-back-when, the alternative to dynamic typing was manifest, restrictive, even weak typing. E.g. languages like C where you </p>
+
+<ul>
+<li><em>have</em> to specify all the types, </li>
+<li>but lack the power of generics and interfaces that have become common in this millennium,</li>
+<li>and where the types may not even be trustworthy, as with C&#39;s implicit conversions (&quot;promotions&quot;), or plenty of languages that have implicit nulls resulting in NPEs and segfaults.</li>
+</ul>
+
+<p>The gradual type systems we see added to various dynamic languages don&#39;t seem to have those same flaws. (Plenty of the older languages have been working on those flaws as well.)</p>
+
+<p>Elixir is old enough that it could&#39;ve been typed from the start (roughly the same age as Typescript), but if we take its beginnings as something like &quot;Erlang in Ruby&#39;s clothing&quot; then it&#39;s no wonder that it wasn&#39;t.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo9xwc/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo9xwc/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo4t88" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opo9xwc"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opo9xwc" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppmxpw noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppmxpw" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppmxpw" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="spider-mario" data-author-fullname="t2_cyspr9x" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppmxpw/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppmxpw"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/spider-mario" class="author may-blank id-t2_cyspr9x" >spider-mario</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:51:40 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:51:40+00:00" class="live-timestamp">28 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppmxpwyot"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppmxpw"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>Elixir is old enough that it could&#39;ve been typed from the start</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>Young enough?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppmxpw/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppmxpw/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo9xwc" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppmxpw"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppmxpw" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppnipw noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppnipw" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppnipw" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="syklemil" data-author-fullname="t2_54rk6oy9" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppnipw/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppnipw"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/syklemil" class="author may-blank id-t2_54rk6oy9" >syklemil</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:54:28 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:54:28+00:00" class="live-timestamp">25 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppnipwgmk"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppnipw"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I&#39;d rather phrase it as</p>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>Elixir&#39;s age indicates that it could&#39;ve been typed from the start</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>than get into a pissing match over &quot;old&quot; vs &quot;young&quot;</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppnipw/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppnipw/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppmxpw" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppnipw"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opo6pov noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opo6pov" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opo6pov" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="kerakk19" data-author-fullname="t2_hsrzj" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo6pov/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opo6pov"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/kerakk19" class="author may-blank id-t2_hsrzj" >kerakk19</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="186">186 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="187">187 points</span><span class="score likes" title="188">188 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 08:01:59 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T08:01:59+00:00" class="live-timestamp">6 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(14 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opo6povf7f"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opo6pov"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Because dynamically typed languages sucks. Always will, always have. </p>
+
+<p>It&#39;s convenient for scripting and so, but as soon as you need to have something stable (actual project), dynamic languages fall flat </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo6pov/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo6pov/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo4t88" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opo6pov"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opo6pov" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoi46x noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoi46x" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoi46x" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="QuickQuirk" data-author-fullname="t2_f5x22ta" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoi46x/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoi46x"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/QuickQuirk" class="author may-blank id-t2_f5x22ta" >QuickQuirk</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="36">36 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="37">37 points</span><span class="score likes" title="38">38 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:42:23 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:42:23+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(9 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoi46x7jk"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoi46x"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Awesome for quick scripting and apps that are less than a thousand lines.</p>
+
+<p>I really dislike it for anything larger. Good type systems eliminate certain classes of bugs.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoi46x/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoi46x/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo6pov" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoi46x"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoi46x" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp0nvc noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp0nvc" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp0nvc" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="SoInsightful" data-author-fullname="t2_5hkms" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp0nvc/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp0nvc"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/SoInsightful" class="author may-blank id-t2_5hkms" >SoInsightful</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="18">18 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="19">19 points</span><span class="score likes" title="20">20 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:53:51 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:53:51+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(8 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp0nvcwy1"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp0nvc"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>Awesome for quick scripting</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>I&#39;ve never even understood this. I&#39;ll create a small quick script in TypeScript over JavaScript every day.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp0nvc/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp0nvc/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoi46x" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0nvc"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp0nvc" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp1o9l noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp1o9l" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp1o9l" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="stumblinbear" data-author-fullname="t2_apj62" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp1o9l/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp1o9l"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/stumblinbear" class="author may-blank id-t2_apj62" >stumblinbear</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="8">8 points</span><span class="score likes" title="9">9 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:59:54 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:59:54+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(6 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp1o9lknu"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp1o9l"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Shit, I&#39;ll write a quick script in Rust if It&#39;s going to be in use for more than few months</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp1o9l/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp1o9l/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp0nvc" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp1o9l"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp1o9l" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppbdl3 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppbdl3" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppbdl3" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="kabocha_" data-author-fullname="t2_kehevxn" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppbdl3/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppbdl3"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/kabocha_" class="author may-blank id-t2_kehevxn" >kabocha_</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:53:58 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:53:58+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(5 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppbdl3aga"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppbdl3"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Tbh my barrier is basically just &quot;is it large enough that I want to save it as a file&quot; nowadays.</p>
+
+<p>Quick bash scripts still win if it&#39;s mostly just calling existing programs, but otherwise my muscle memory + Rusts ease of spinning up a new project and adding dependencies wins.</p>
+
+<p>I think I only launch Python as a quick terminal calculator anymore, lol</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppgbun/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppgbun/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppbdl3" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppgbun"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppgbun" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppsfuu noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppsfuu" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppsfuu" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="kabocha_" data-author-fullname="t2_kehevxn" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppsfuu/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppsfuu"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/kabocha_" class="author may-blank id-t2_kehevxn" >kabocha_</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:17:34 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:17:34+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppsfuua6s"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppsfuu"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>One of these days I&#39;ll pick a different shell and switch to it.</p>
+
+<p>I always keep thinking &quot;but what about all the other systems I have to log into, my muscle memory will break for <strong><em>seconds</em></strong> before I remember to install it on that system too!&quot; 😂</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppp8s4/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppp8s4/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppbdl3" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppp8s4"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppp8s4" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opprh9l noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opprh9l" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opprh9l" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="kabocha_" data-author-fullname="t2_kehevxn" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opprh9l/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opprh9l"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/kabocha_" class="author may-blank id-t2_kehevxn" >kabocha_</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:13:08 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:13:08+00:00" class="live-timestamp">6 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opprh9lbx9"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opprh9l"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Ooo I hadn&#39;t even thought of using a unit-aware program/language, that actually might be super useful for most of those &quot;terminal calculator&quot; use cases. Good tip!</p>
+
+<p>The python mostly stuck around as muscle memory, so I&#39;ll need to break that habit 😂</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>I&#39;m still going to reach for python or erlang first.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></div><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppggh5"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_deleted" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppl3v2 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppl3v2" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppl3v2" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="-Ch4s3-" data-author-fullname="t2_9sbuz" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppl3v2/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppl3v2"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/-Ch4s3-" class="author may-blank id-t2_9sbuz" >-Ch4s3-</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:42:55 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:42:55+00:00" class="live-timestamp">37 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppl3v2xob"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppl3v2"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Just because you don’t like dynamic languages doesn’t mean they suck. Distributed systems build for live code reloading while messages are in flight need to have at least some capacity for dynamic types. You can’t have nodes declaring different types at once for the same message. Dynamic types allow you to roll forward in a running system, it’s a very strong solution to that problem, and has proven robust for 40 years. Conversely trying to do this with static types would suck.</p>
+
+<p>Moreover a lot of basic web protocols are inherently stringly typed and dynamic.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>This looks like with guards (which have additional useful properties eg overloading, good luck with that, TypeScript!) you can pretty much have a statically analysable and typesafe program with the convenience of writing it like a dynamic one.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>Elixir (like Erlang) uses arity of arguments + a guard clause with predicate functions to determine which version of a function to run. Which is technically not overloading like Java, C# or C++ do but is probably more flexible/useful (and more like Haskell pattern matching on function signature).</p>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>I even wrote types during technical interviews in Python.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opou1cb/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opou1cb/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoduy5" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opou1cb"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opohrj4 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opohrj4" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opohrj4" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="syklemil" data-author-fullname="t2_54rk6oy9" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opohrj4/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opohrj4"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/syklemil" class="author may-blank id-t2_54rk6oy9" >syklemil</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="12">12 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="13">13 points</span><span class="score likes" title="14">14 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:39:27 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:39:27+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opohrj4dvf"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opohrj4"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Part of it is just the power and  effort that needs to go into some types. Dynamic typing generally wants the programmer to be able to express valid programs that would either be inexpressible or require inordinate amounts of efforts to type in static languages.</p>
+
+<p>If you&#39;ve ever seen someone complain about complex generics, those are the cases where a dynamic type system would let you just write the behaviour and move on without needing a PhD in type theory.</p>
+
+<p>In practice plenty of people will just punch a hole in their type system with <code>Any</code> (AKA <code>void*</code>, <code>Object</code>, <code>interface{}</code>) when they come across a situation like that, which practically is static type systems moving towards the same middle ground, just from the opposite starting point.</p>
+
+<p>I prefer static typing myself, but it should be plenty clear to anyone that it ain&#39;t all sunshine and rainbows all the time either.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opohrj4/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opohrj4/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo9v29" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opohrj4"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opohrj4" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opphalc noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opphalc" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opphalc" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="tukanoid" data-author-fullname="t2_8m72b05" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opphalc/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opphalc"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/tukanoid" class="author may-blank id-t2_8m72b05" >tukanoid</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:24:07 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:24:07+00:00" class="live-timestamp">55 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opphalc1g8"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opphalc"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>If you struggle with (complex) generics in types, i find it hard to believe that dynamic typing will make it easier, cuz now you have to keep all that context on your head, good luck remembering/re-figuring shit out in a week of not working on that part of code.</p>
+
+<p>Although, guess depends on the language. While the Rusts type system is not perfect, its expressive enough for me to be able to cram my logic into types 95% of the time</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opphalc/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opphalc/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opohrj4" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opphalc"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opphalc" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppnotw noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppnotw" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppnotw" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="syklemil" data-author-fullname="t2_54rk6oy9" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppnotw/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppnotw"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/syklemil" class="author may-blank id-t2_54rk6oy9" >syklemil</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:55:18 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:55:18+00:00" class="live-timestamp">24 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppnotw2kb"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppnotw"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>If you struggle with (complex) generics in types, i find it hard to believe that dynamic typing will make it easier, cuz now you have to keep all that context on your head,</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>That&#39;s the neat thing, you don&#39;t. Programmers who are used to untyped languages just don&#39;t reason around things the same way someone used to e.g. Rust or Haskell do. Shit, just talking about ADTs/&quot;enums&quot; and tuples to gophers is enough to make a lot of them confused, because they&#39;re not a part of the type system that they&#39;re used to.</p>
+
+<p>Instead they&#39;ll write tests and maybe some assertions. I suspect that in the extreme cases, that&#39;s actually the path of least resistance, as opposed to practically formally proving the behaviour through the type system.</p>
+
+<p>Programmers don&#39;t all think alike, just like how some have a more imperative mind and some a more expression-oriented mind.</p>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>Although, guess depends on the language. While the Rusts type system is not perfect, its expressive enough for me to be able to cram my logic into types 95% of the time</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>I also generally like Rust&#39;s type system, but that is on the more powerful side of the mainstream spectrum, and having lifetimes be part of the type system means you can describe some behaviour, like typestate, that&#39;s more likely to have wonky behaviour in GC languages.</p>
+
+<p>And I think most of us would still reach for some escape hatch before we wound up actually writing a signature like <a href="https://github.com/oxidecomputer/omicron/blob/5fd1c3588a45adfba0d8c59ff847487b28e6968b/nexus/db-queries/src/db/pagination.rs#L78-L181" rel="nofollow">this one</a> (<a href="/r/rust/comments/1kl3uhj/most_complex_type_signature/mrzigri/" rel="nofollow">via</a>).</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppnotw/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppnotw/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opphalc" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppnotw"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opox8iy noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opox8iy" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opox8iy" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="M4mb0" data-author-fullname="t2_jhwvq" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opox8iy/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opox8iy"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/M4mb0" class="author may-blank id-t2_jhwvq" >M4mb0</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:32:37 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:32:37+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opox8iyled"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opox8iy"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Because adding static types can be a huge effort and restrictions in the type system like lack of intersection types, dependent types and higher kinded types can prevent you from even statically expressing perfectly valid runtime code.</p>
+
+<p>I&#39;d invite you to take a look at how complex annotations become for instance for python libs like numpy, scipy or pandas. Often functions need 10+ overloads to even statically express all their runtime capabilities.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>My early experiences with Java + Eclipse vs Perl + vim left me with the feeling that I could have a running, working program in Perl before Eclipse had even displayed everything I&#39;d typed on the screen.</p>
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+
+<p>To be fair, static typing in Erlang and Elixir is not actually as needed as in Python or JavaScript because you have pattern-matching built-in at the language level. You can see at a glance what shape your data needs to be in. Of course having that enforced by the compiler is better, but it is what it is.</p>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+- Preventing (many) runtime crashes
+- Domain model / module documentation that doesn’t go obsolete and is exact
+- Better IDE support / autocomplete</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>Same with nosql databases, local apps running like web (large parts of windows now), javascript ecosystem and few others.</p>
+
+<p>You come up with explanation why it is bad and the crowd will make sure you fell like you are crazy.</p>
+
+<p>BUT! Dynamic typing is not bad idea. It just should not be used for many things it is used for now.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opodiyi/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opodiyi/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo9wmd" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opodiyi"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opodiyi" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoem0s noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoem0s" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoem0s" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Revolutionary_Ad6574" data-author-fullname="t2_7nmu8lrs" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoem0s/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoem0s"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Revolutionary_Ad6574" class="author may-blank id-t2_7nmu8lrs" >Revolutionary_Ad6574</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:12:01 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:12:01+00:00" class="live-timestamp">5 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoem0sxlt"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoem0s"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I agree. It has its uses. But for large, scalable projects static typing is the way to go.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoem0s/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoem0s/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opodiyi" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoem0s"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opobedg noncollapsed &#32; controversial comment " id="thing_t1_opobedg" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opobedg" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="f311a" data-author-fullname="t2_w0k80" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opobedg/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opobedg"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/f311a" class="author submitter may-blank id-t2_w0k80" >f311a</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/">S</a>]</span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 08:43:36 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T08:43:36+00:00" class="live-timestamp">5 hours ago</time><time class="edited-timestamp" title="last edited 5 hours ago" datetime="2026-06-04T08:47:11+00:00">*</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opobedgscm"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opobedg"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>So what&#39;s bad about about catching runtime errors and crashes before they happen at runtime? They will happen if not found, unless it&#39;s a dead code. No one forces you to specify types.</p>
+
+<p>The examples in the blog post clearly demonstrates that, you can&#39;t divide string by a number. Even if a dynamic language can do that, it would be a bug in most of the cases.</p>
+
+<p>You can do this is JavaScript and it will silently give you a Nan, which most people won&#39;t even bother checking after division.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opobedg/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opobedg/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo4t88" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opobedg"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opobedg" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opopphd noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opopphd" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opopphd" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="syklemil" data-author-fullname="t2_54rk6oy9" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opopphd/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opopphd"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/syklemil" class="author may-blank id-t2_54rk6oy9" >syklemil</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:41:20 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:41:20+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opopphdo7d"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opopphd"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>The examples in the blog post clearly demonstrates that, you can&#39;t divide string by a number. Even if a dynamic language can do that, it would be a bug in most of the cases.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>It can also be the correct, intended behaviour, see e.g. this Perl program:</p>
+
+<pre><code>print &quot;divisor: &quot;;
+chomp( my $divisor = &lt;&gt; );
+
+print &quot;dividend: &quot;;
+chomp( my $dividend = &lt;&gt; );
+
+say &quot;result: &quot; . $divisor / $dividend;
+</code></pre>
+
+<p>Perl has conversion rules for <code>string -&gt; number</code>, which is something along the lines of &quot;parse the string until you encounter a non-numeric character; 0 if the string starts with a non-numeric character&quot;. Its operators are also explicitly for either numbers (like <code>/</code>, <code>+</code>, <code>==</code>) or strings (like <code>.</code>, <code>eq</code>).</p>
+
+<p>I&#39;m not really sure about it being a bug in <em>most</em> cases either, the problem with implicit conversions is more that they&#39;re a PITA to locate and correct when they <em>are</em> bugs.</p>
+
+<p>Like when PHP, using a similar conversion rule, wound up comparing some SHAs as if they were numbers with some garbage string at the end, e.g. <code>&quot;0efoo…&quot; == &quot;0ebar…&quot;</code> because <code>0 == 0</code>, and it doesn&#39;t have the <code>==</code>/<code>eq</code> split that Perl does to give the programmer control over what sort of comparison will be done.</p>
+
+<p>And in cases like JS, if we get a <code>NaN</code> after division, we might have a <code>0/0</code> or we might have <code>&quot;hello&quot;/&quot;world&quot;</code>, so it&#39;s a really weak error signal compared to what we get out of typechecking.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opopphd/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opopphd/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opobedg" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opopphd"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opowf26 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opowf26" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opowf26" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="ajr901" data-author-fullname="t2_4twra" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opowf26/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opowf26"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ajr901" class="author may-blank id-t2_4twra" >ajr901</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="15">15 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="16">16 points</span><span class="score likes" title="17">17 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:27:15 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:27:15+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(7 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opowf26jlp"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opowf26"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>A year ago or so I started toying around with Elixir and genuinely enjoyed it but eventually dropped it because I kept repeatedly thinking, “I really wish this was typed.” </p>
+
+<p>I’m really glad it’s heading in that direction.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opowf26/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opowf26/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="true" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opowf26"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opowf26" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp86rk noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp86rk" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp86rk" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="moltonel" data-author-fullname="t2_2tfe2hig" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp86rk/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp86rk"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/moltonel" class="author may-blank id-t2_2tfe2hig" >moltonel</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:36:48 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:36:48+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp86rkkof"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp86rk"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Maybe have a look at Gleam ? Same ecosystem, but statically typed from the start.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp86rk/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp86rk/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opowf26" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp86rk"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp3m19 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp3m19" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp3m19" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="legoman25" data-author-fullname="t2_5v00a" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp3m19/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp3m19"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/legoman25" class="author may-blank id-t2_5v00a" >legoman25</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="-5">-5 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="-4">-4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="-3">-3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:11:09 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:11:09+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(5 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp3m19pel"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp3m19"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Elixir was typed, before: dynamically typed. People really need to stop implying static typing is &quot;having types&quot; and dynamic typing is &quot;no types&quot;</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp3m19/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp3m19/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opowf26" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp3m19"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp3m19" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppaz45 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppaz45" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppaz45" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="bythenumbers10" data-author-fullname="t2_akcd2" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppaz45/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppaz45"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/bythenumbers10" class="author may-blank id-t2_akcd2" >bythenumbers10</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:51:52 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:51:52+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppaz45zxj"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppaz45"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>You could always have the worst of both worlds: Static weak typing, like C++!!!</p>
+
+<p>Strong types are mandatory, sit down JS.
+Gradual typing allows one-off scripts to develop into more deterministic code libraries as foundational assumptions settle into place. But while definitions are in flux, let them.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppaz45/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppaz45/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp3m19" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppaz45"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opps1cv noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opps1cv" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opps1cv" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Atulin" data-author-fullname="t2_jfbtb" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opps1cv/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opps1cv"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Atulin" class="author may-blank id-t2_jfbtb" >Atulin</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:15:43 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:15:43+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opps1cvehg"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opps1cv"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>dynamically typed</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>Might as well have not been typed, then</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opps1cv/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opps1cv/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp3m19" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opps1cv"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppb1cd noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppb1cd" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppb1cd" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="TankorSmash" data-author-fullname="t2_4fqx0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppb1cd/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppb1cd"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/TankorSmash" class="author may-blank id-t2_4fqx0" >TankorSmash</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:52:11 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:52:11+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppb1cdqj2"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppb1cd"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>People really need to stop implying static typing is &quot;having types&quot; and dynamic typing is &quot;no types&quot;</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>That&#39;s semantics. What people mean is dynamic types is not checked at &#39;compile&#39; time</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppb1cd/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppb1cd/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp3m19" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppb1cd"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppb1cd" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opppnrg noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opppnrg" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opppnrg" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="legoman25" data-author-fullname="t2_5v00a" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opppnrg/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opppnrg"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/legoman25" class="author may-blank id-t2_5v00a" >legoman25</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="-1">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score likes" title="1">1 point</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:04:36 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:04:36+00:00" class="live-timestamp">15 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opppnrg8q3"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opppnrg"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>It&#39;s not semantics, its the definition of the terms. </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opppnrg/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opppnrg/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppb1cd" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opppnrg"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opppnrg" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppq3j8 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppq3j8" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppq3j8" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="legoman25" data-author-fullname="t2_5v00a" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppq3j8/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppq3j8"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/legoman25" class="author may-blank id-t2_5v00a" >legoman25</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:06:40 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:06:40+00:00" class="live-timestamp">13 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppq3j8tvi"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppq3j8"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p><a href="https://lewiscampbell.tech/blog/250817.html" rel="nofollow">https://lewiscampbell.tech/blog/250817.html</a></p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppq3j8/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppq3j8/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opppnrg" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppq3j8"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoi5jm noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoi5jm" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoi5jm" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="QuickQuirk" data-author-fullname="t2_f5x22ta" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoi5jm/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoi5jm"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/QuickQuirk" class="author may-blank id-t2_f5x22ta" >QuickQuirk</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:42:41 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:42:41+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(3 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoi5jm79q"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoi5jm"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Now we just need it in Erlang.
+I still prefer erlang.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoi5jm/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoi5jm/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="true" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoi5jm"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoi5jm" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoz1mo noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoz1mo" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoz1mo" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="michalmuskala" data-author-fullname="t2_qoieo" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoz1mo/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoz1mo"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/michalmuskala" class="author may-blank id-t2_qoieo" >michalmuskala</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:44:04 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:44:04+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoz1mo1af"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoz1mo"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>We have it in erlang already for a while through eqwalizer </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoz1mo/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opoz1mo/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoi5jm" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoz1mo"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoz1mo" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp6kf5 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp6kf5" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp6kf5" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="QuickQuirk" data-author-fullname="t2_f5x22ta" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp6kf5/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp6kf5"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/QuickQuirk" class="author may-blank id-t2_f5x22ta" >QuickQuirk</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:27:43 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:27:43+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp6kf52vl"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp6kf5"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>What they&#39;re doing here is the first step in a real type system in the elixir language itself with support in the compiler, rather than running another process on the side. I mean, there was dialyser before.</p>
+
+<p>The problem with the &#39;linter&#39; style tools is that they&#39;re not mandatory. Even if you use it in your project, it breaks down when you pull in dependencies that don&#39;t.</p>
+
+<p>Since it&#39;s in the compiler, it means that over time, everything in the ecosystem will be using the type system.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp6kf5/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opp6kf5/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoz1mo" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp6kf5"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp6kf5" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppkiu0 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppkiu0" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppkiu0" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Wonderful-Habit-139" data-author-fullname="t2_14qj5bs6rl" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppkiu0/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppkiu0"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Wonderful-Habit-139" class="author may-blank id-t2_14qj5bs6rl" >Wonderful-Habit-139</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:40:02 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:40:02+00:00" class="live-timestamp">39 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppkiu04pv"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppkiu0"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Correct. Just wanted to give an upvote here, and mention that Python went through the same thing when they started having an actual typing module in the standard library, rather than relying on external tools with no direct interaction with the Python language.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppkiu0/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/oppkiu0/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="false" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp6kf5" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppkiu0"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opo8fph noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opo8fph" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opo8fph" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="PersonalDatabase31" data-author-fullname="t2_2d5k55w0f5" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo8fph/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opo8fph"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/PersonalDatabase31" class="author may-blank id-t2_2d5k55w0f5" >PersonalDatabase31</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 08:17:08 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T08:17:08+00:00" class="live-timestamp">6 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opo8fphn1z"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opo8fph"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Bare minimum </p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo8fph/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opo8fph/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/" data-root="true" data-title="Elixir v1.20 released: now a gradually typed language" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opo8fph"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opowu6d noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opowu6d" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opowu6d" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="No-Hat-2797" data-author-fullname="t2_291xunpix6" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twg7mu/elixir_v120_released_now_a_gradually_typed/opowu6d/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opowu6d"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/No-Hat-2797" class="author may-blank id-t2_291xunpix6" >No-Hat-2797</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="-3">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="-2">-2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="-1">-1 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:30:01 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:30:01+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opowu6da9k"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opowu6d"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>gradual typing in elixir is a big deal for teams that want the flexibility of dynamic code</p>
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– Insane Speed Test • Roy van Rijn</div></a></div></div></div></aside></div></div></div><a name="content"></a><div class="content" role="main" ><section class="infobar listingsignupbar"><a href="/login" class="login-required listingsignupbar__container"><h2 class="listingsignupbar__title">Welcome to Reddit,</h2><p class="listingsignupbar__desc">the front page of the internet.</p><div class="listingsignupbar__cta-container"><span class="c-btn c-btn-primary c-pull-left listingsignupbar__cta-button">Become a Redditor</span><p class="listingsignupbar__cta-desc">and join one of thousands of communities.</p></div></a><a href="#" class="listingsignupbar__close" title="close">&times;</a></section><style>body >.content .link .rank, .rank-spacer { width: 1.1ex } body >.content .link .midcol, .midcol-spacer { width: 3.1ex } .adsense-wrap { background-color: #eff7ff; font-size: 18px; padding-left: 4.2ex; padding-right: 5px; }</style><div id="siteTable" class="sitetable linklisting"><div class=" thing id-t3_1twhl2t odd&#32; link " id="thing_t3_1twhl2t" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t3_1twhl2t" data-type="link" data-gildings="0" data-whitelist-status="all_ads" data-is-gallery="false" data-author="Horror-Willingness74" data-author-fullname="t2_1r6ihf7zk4" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-timestamp="1780562018000" data-url="https://blog.geekuni.com/2026/06/why-learn-pandas.html" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-domain="blog.geekuni.com" data-rank="" data-comments-count="34" data-score="43" data-promoted="false" data-nsfw="false" data-spoiler="false" data-oc="false" data-num-crossposts="0" data-context="comments" ><p class="parent"></p><span class="rank"></span><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="score dislikes" title="42">42</div><div class="score unvoted" title="43">43</div><div class="score likes" title="44">44</div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="top-matter"><p class="title"><a class="title may-blank outbound" data-event-action="title" href="https://blog.geekuni.com/2026/06/why-learn-pandas.html" tabindex="1" data-href-url="https://blog.geekuni.com/2026/06/why-learn-pandas.html" data-outbound-url="https://out.reddit.com/t3_1twhl2t?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.geekuni.com%2F2026%2F06%2Fwhy-learn-pandas.html&amp;token=AQAAnpchakoOmErjro5jTRtHD--DiHLy_XtPRKkcZCmpdKpPHANS&amp;app_name=reddit.com" data-outbound-expiration="1780586398000" rel="nofollow ugc" >Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science</a>&#32;<span class="domain">(<a href="/domain/blog.geekuni.com/">blog.geekuni.com</a>)</span></p><p class="tagline ">submitted&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 08:33:38 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T08:33:38+00:00" class="live-timestamp">5 hours ago</time>&#32;by&#32;<a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Horror-Willingness74" class="author may-blank id-t2_1r6ihf7zk4" >Horror-Willingness74</a><span class="userattrs"></span></p></div><div class="expando expando-uninitialized" data-pin-condition="function() {return this.style.display != 'none';}" ><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t3_1twhl2tnqt"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t3_1twhl2t"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I wrote a short article about why Pandas is worth learning from a general programming perspective, not just a data science one.</p>
+
+<p>A lot of everyday programming work involves tabular data - CSV files, reports, logs, exports, billing data, sales data, inventory data, operational spreadsheets, analytics extracts, etc.</p>
+
+<p>You can process that kind of data with loops and dictionaries, SQL, shell tools, or spreadsheets. But Pandas gives Python a very compact and expressive way to do filtering, grouping, aggregation, joins, and reshaping in code.</p>
+
+<p>The article uses a small sales/purchases CSV example and compares the Pandas approach with plain Python and spreadsheet-style thinking.</p>
+
+<p>I’m curious how other programmers think about this: is Pandas one of the libraries that makes Python worth learning, even for people whose main work is not data science? Or would you usually reach for SQL, spreadsheets, shell tools, or something else?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form></div><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-event-action="comments" class="bylink comments may-blank" rel="nofollow" >34 comments</a></li><li class="share"><a class="post-sharing-button" href="javascript: void 0;">share</a></li><li class="link-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="#">save</a></li><li><form action="/post/hide" method="post" class="state-button hide-button"><input type="hidden" name="executed" value="hidden" /><span><a href="javascript:void(0)" class=" " data-event-action="hide" onclick="change_state(this, 'hide', hide_thing);">hide</a></span></form></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t3_1twhl2t"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class='commentarea'><div class="panestack-title"><span class="title">all 34 comments</span></div><div class="menuarea"><div class="spacer"><span class="dropdown-title lightdrop">sorted by:&#32;</span><div class="dropdown lightdrop" onclick="open_menu(this)"><span class="selected">best</span></div><div class="drop-choices lightdrop"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/?sort=top" class="choice" >top</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/?sort=new" class="choice" >new</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/?sort=controversial" class="choice" >controversial</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/?sort=old" class="choice" >old</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/?sort=random" class="hidden choice" >random</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/?sort=qa" class="choice" >q&amp;a</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/?sort=live" class="hidden choice" >live (beta)</a></div></div><div class="spacer"></div></div><section class="infobar commentsignupbar"><div class="commentsignupbar__container"><a href="/login" class="login-required commentsignupbar__link-wrapper"><textarea class="commentsignupbar__textarea"></textarea><div class="commentsignupbar__textarea-above"><h2 class="commentsignupbar__title">Want to add to the discussion?</h2><p class="commentsignupbar__desc">Post a comment!</p><div class="commentsignupbar__cta-container"><span class="c-btn c-btn-primary commentsignupbar__cta-button">Create an account</span></div></div></a></div></section><div id="siteTable_t3_1twhl2t" class="sitetable nestedlisting"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoe18d noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoe18d" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoe18d" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="guepier" data-author-fullname="t2_5row0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoe18d/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoe18d"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/guepier" class="author may-blank id-t2_5row0" >guepier</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="117">117 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="118">118 points</span><span class="score likes" title="119">119 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:06:54 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:06:54+00:00" class="live-timestamp">5 hours ago</time><time class="edited-timestamp" title="last edited 4 hours ago" datetime="2026-06-04T09:40:29+00:00">*</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(16 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoe18drm5"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoe18d"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I disagree with this incredibly strongly. I use Python extensively, and I mostly like it, but whenever I need to do data analysis I bend over backwards to avoid Pandas. Mostly this means using R instead. Pandas is nowhere near the state of the art of data analytics. Even Python has better libraries (namely, Polars). Pandas is atrociously slow and has a terrible API. — And to head off potential responses: I <em>have</em> used Pandas extensively, and I am absolutely qualified to judge its merits compared to other solutions.</p>
+
+<p>So, no, I disagree with the premise: there are lots of reasons to learn Python, but Pandas is emphatically not one of them.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoe18d/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoe18d/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoe18d"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoe18d" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oposn01 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oposn01" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oposn01" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="unski_ukuli" data-author-fullname="t2_wvl5d" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oposn01/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oposn01"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/unski_ukuli" class="author may-blank id-t2_wvl5d" >unski_ukuli</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="23">23 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="24">24 points</span><span class="score likes" title="25">25 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:01:48 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:01:48+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oposn01tqy"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oposn01"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>This. I vehemently hate how pandas like to throw stuff into the index. Polars is nice because it has no index, is fast and is logical in the api. Also, immutability is a nice addition.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oposn01/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oposn01/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoe18d" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oposn01"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoqxey noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoqxey" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoqxey" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="ZirePhiinix" data-author-fullname="t2_4yd5ms" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoqxey/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoqxey"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ZirePhiinix" class="author may-blank id-t2_4yd5ms" >ZirePhiinix</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="20">20 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="21">21 points</span><span class="score likes" title="22">22 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:50:00 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:50:00+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoqxeyapg"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoqxey"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Pandas has really weird syntax that is nearly impossible to remember. There&#39;s randomly differently behaviors based on how the data is structured and I always have to Google like crazy to figure it out.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoqxey/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoqxey/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoe18d" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoqxey"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opoqxey" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppemgf noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppemgf" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppemgf" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Breadinator" data-author-fullname="t2_4x4mo" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppemgf/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppemgf"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Breadinator" class="author may-blank id-t2_4x4mo" >Breadinator</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:10:48 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:10:48+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppemgf1jh"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppemgf"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Thank you. The syntax is esoteric and drives me nuts sometimes. I sometimes have to guess WTH is happening by starting at the references made and working backwards on intent. Then pulling out my LLM assistant anyway and still asking it what the convoluted thing actually is.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppemgf/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppemgf/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoqxey" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppemgf"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opofdub noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opofdub" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opofdub" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="florinp" data-author-fullname="t2_48epz" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opofdub/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opofdub"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/florinp" class="author may-blank id-t2_48epz" >florinp</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="24">24 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="25">25 points</span><span class="score likes" title="26">26 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:18:51 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:18:51+00:00" class="live-timestamp">5 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opofdubilx"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opofdub"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Polars was written as a replacement for Pandas.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opofdub/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opofdub/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoe18d" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opofdub"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoiou7 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoiou7" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoiou7" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="QuickQuirk" data-author-fullname="t2_f5x22ta" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoiou7/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoiou7"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/QuickQuirk" class="author may-blank id-t2_f5x22ta" >QuickQuirk</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score likes" title="7">7 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:47:03 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:47:03+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoiou7snz"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoiou7"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I&#39;ve just started learning R, and am pleasantly surprised.</p>
+
+<p>I mean, I like Python, in general, but R matches my preferences more.
+The things in Pandas that feel like they&#39;re bending over backwards to make work are a natural part of R itself.
+And it&#39;s also more on the functional language side of things, which I appreciate.</p>
+
+<p>Helps that the tensorflow support seems pretty good these days too, for ML.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoiou7/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoiou7/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoe18d" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoiou7"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opofdlk noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opofdlk" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opofdlk" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="SV-97" data-author-fullname="t2_1qydb8cw" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opofdlk/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opofdlk"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/SV-97" class="author may-blank id-t2_1qydb8cw" >SV-97</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="17">17 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="18">18 points</span><span class="score likes" title="19">19 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:18:47 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:18:47+00:00" class="live-timestamp">5 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(9 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opofdlk0yv"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opofdlk"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>AFAIK pandas has actually improved quite a bit with its most recent major release. I haven&#39;t checked it out yet since polars is just so good and I doubt that even this new version of pandas is as nice as polars; but I think it *is* substantially better than it used to be.</p>
+
+<p>And personally I&#39;d take even old pandas over R any day. The dev experience with R is just atrocious.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opofdlk/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opofdlk/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoe18d" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opofdlk"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opofdlk" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp2g1p noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp2g1p" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp2g1p" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="huge_clock" data-author-fullname="t2_pffep" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp2g1p/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp2g1p"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/huge_clock" class="author may-blank id-t2_pffep" >huge_clock</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:04:26 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:04:26+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp2g1pkgw"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp2g1p"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Pandas keeps getting worse for the simple things you want to use it for. I used to be able to take a data frame and go df.sum() and get the sum of each numerical category. Now they same operation will concatenate every string object in the data frame.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp2g1p/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp2g1p/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opofdlk" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp2g1p"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opogw23 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opogw23" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opogw23" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="guepier" data-author-fullname="t2_5row0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opogw23/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opogw23"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/guepier" class="author may-blank id-t2_5row0" >guepier</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="12">12 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="13">13 points</span><span class="score likes" title="14">14 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:31:58 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:31:58+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(7 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opogw23eo6"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opogw23"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>The dev experience with R is just atrocious</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>Yes, but the data analytics experience isn’t. R is miles ahead of Python in that space, and not just because of the libraries.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opogw23/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opogw23/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opofdlk" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opogw23"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opogw23" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opokhc6 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opokhc6" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opokhc6" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="SV-97" data-author-fullname="t2_1qydb8cw" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opokhc6/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opokhc6"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/SV-97" class="author may-blank id-t2_1qydb8cw" >SV-97</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score likes" title="8">8 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:01:33 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:01:33+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(6 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opokhc6fm2"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opokhc6"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>If you only consider ecosystem size for your &quot;data analytics experience&quot; (and equate data analysis with mostly calculating statistics on some data): sure, for the most part that&#39;s true.</p>
+
+<p>However when taking a more holistic view (i.e. setting up a dev environment in the first place, data extraction and cleaning, actually getting data in and out of the system, data exploration, writing core analyses and debugging those, publishing, ...) this isn&#39;t really true in my opinion. In my experience you end up wasting so much time dealing with all those pain points and idiosyncrasies around R that it&#39;s altogether faster to use Python and just implement the things that don&#39;t already exist yourself (although this is of course not viable for everyone) or interop with other languages for those parts.</p>
+
+<p>And in particular when you don&#39;t do anything overly niche (as is really the case for what OP is talking about here) the python ecosystem is perfectly workable, and in some fields even miles ahead of R. For example for me a lot of data analysis involves optimization and some geometry processing / a bunch of maths. And for those python really has the strictly better ecosystem and larger community.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opokhc6/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opokhc6/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opogw23" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opokhc6"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opokhc6" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing noncollapsed &#32; deleted comment " onclick="click_thing(this)" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opop0w5/" ><p class="parent"></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><em>[deleted]</em>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:36:24 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:36:24+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time><time class="edited-timestamp" title="last edited 3 hours ago" datetime="2026-06-04T10:45:48+00:00">*</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(4 children)</a></p><div class="usertext grayed"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value=""/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>[deleted]</p>
+</div>
+</div></div><ul class="flat-list buttons"></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opop0w5"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_deleted" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opoyamj noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoyamj" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoyamj" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="PillowFortressKing" data-author-fullname="t2_1682er7z1p" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoyamj/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoyamj"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/PillowFortressKing" class="author may-blank id-t2_1682er7z1p" >PillowFortressKing</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:39:24 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:39:24+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoyamjad0"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoyamj"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Because doing iterative data analysis in a compiled language is even worse. Grabbing a Python package that&#39;s written in a high performance language gives you the best of both worlds.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoyamj/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoyamj/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoyamj"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opow525 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opow525" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opow525" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="youcangotohellgoto" data-author-fullname="t2_dvcja" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opow525/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opow525"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/youcangotohellgoto" class="author may-blank id-t2_dvcja" >youcangotohellgoto</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:25:23 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:25:23+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opow52595v"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opow525"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>If someone is worried about speed why are they reaching for python at all?</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>Of course neither Pandas nor Polars are really &quot;Python&quot; - that&#39;s just the API to a C or Rust implementation.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opow525/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opow525/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opow525"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oponz75 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oponz75" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oponz75" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="guepier" data-author-fullname="t2_5row0" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oponz75/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oponz75"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/guepier" class="author may-blank id-t2_5row0" >guepier</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:28:37 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:28:37+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oponz75erl"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oponz75"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I’m definitely not just considering the ecosystem size, I’m also considering ergonomics of the other aspects you mention. I agree that setting up a reproducible dev environment in R is frustrating. And “getting data in and out” of the system <em>can</em> be more convoluted than in Python, depending on the type of the data and storage and/or ingress/egress mechanism (e.g. JSON data, or data hosted on S3: botocore/s3fs is vastly better than anything R has to offer). But, honestly, in most cases it’s seamless.</p>
+
+<p>I disagree with the rest: data extraction, cleaning, exploration, core analysis and publishing are all things that R <em>excels</em> at. Troubleshooting is occasionally made harder due to the lack of any type safety, but type annotations are also much less helpful for data analysis than for most other software engineering applications. And interactive debugging (and, importantly, interactive <em>exploration</em> of data) works very well.</p>
+
+<p>And modern R IDE integration (be it via dedicated IDEs such as Positron or RStudio, or via plugins such as Nvim-R or ESS) provides best-in-class interactive data exploration REPLs, and these integrate very well with report generation via Quarto, which in many regards is also strictly superior to Jupyter (but if you prefer the latter, there is an R kernel for it).</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oponz75/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oponz75/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opokhc6" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oponz75"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp11gd noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp11gd" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp11gd" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="ManySugar5156" data-author-fullname="t2_2bcekvc1s6" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp11gd/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp11gd"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/ManySugar5156" class="author may-blank id-t2_2bcekvc1s6" >ManySugar5156</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:56:08 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:56:08+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp11gd7uk"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp11gd"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>same, pandas is usually the thing i avoid first. polars or r feels less annoying most of the time</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp11gd/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp11gd/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opoe18d" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp11gd"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opop73v noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opop73v" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opop73v" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="HiPhish" data-author-fullname="t2_16lgo8x" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opop73v/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opop73v"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/HiPhish" class="author may-blank id-t2_16lgo8x" >HiPhish</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="26">26 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="27">27 points</span><span class="score likes" title="28">28 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:37:40 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:37:40+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opop73v1pc"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opop73v"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Pandas has an atrociously un-pythonic API that makes me hate it to its core. I guess you have to use it if you are dealing with large amounts of data, but otherwise just give me regular lists and dicts. Pandas feels too much like &quot;magic&quot; where things just work until they don&#39;t. The documentation is pretty bad as well, it&#39;s as if you are meant to study the examples and then form a mental model of how the API works on your own. Oh, and good luck finding out what the data types are and dealing with Pandas&#39;s automatic type conversion.</p>
+
+<p>At least that was the case last time I had to use it. Maybe it has gotten better since, but I have no desire to come back.</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp4wd6/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp4wd6/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp22dg" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp4wd6"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opomwgm noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opomwgm" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opomwgm" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="billsil" data-author-fullname="t2_6ay72" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opomwgm/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opomwgm"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/billsil" class="author may-blank id-t2_6ay72" >billsil</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="31">31 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="32">32 points</span><span class="score likes" title="33">33 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 10:20:27 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T10:20:27+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opomwgmonc"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opomwgm"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I wrote a tool with straight numpy and it’s 50x faster than the pandas implemention. Pandas is severely overused and that’s before you start talking about polars, which is basically fast pandas.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opomwgm/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opomwgm/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opomwgm"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp1kp3 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp1kp3" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp1kp3" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="RedEyed__" data-author-fullname="t2_j0uptpk" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp1kp3/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp1kp3"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/RedEyed__" class="author may-blank id-t2_j0uptpk" >RedEyed__</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="5">5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="6">6 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:59:18 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:59:18+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp1kp3t7z"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp1kp3"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p><del>pandas</del>polars</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp1kp3/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp1kp3/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp1kp3"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opoicn7 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opoicn7" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opoicn7" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="zemega" data-author-fullname="t2_xy3mn" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoicn7/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opoicn7"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/zemega" class="author may-blank id-t2_xy3mn" >zemega</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="6">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="7">7 points</span><span class="score likes" title="8">8 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 09:44:18 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T09:44:18+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opoicn7uor"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opoicn7"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I would say, if you need a little operation here and there, pandas are fine. But if you are serious, use polars.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoicn7/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opoicn7/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opoicn7"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opou1rq noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opou1rq" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opou1rq" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="turbothy" data-author-fullname="t2_2m2sp" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opou1rq/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opou1rq"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/turbothy" class="author may-blank id-t2_2m2sp" >turbothy</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:11:27 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:11:27+00:00" class="live-timestamp">3 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opou1rq56c"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opou1rq"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>If you don&#39;t know Pandas by now, count your lucky stars and pick up something actually useful instead.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opou1rq/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opou1rq/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opou1rq"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp0nqk noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp0nqk" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp0nqk" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="lood9phee2Ri" data-author-fullname="t2_nbimh" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp0nqk/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp0nqk"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/lood9phee2Ri" class="author may-blank id-t2_nbimh" >lood9phee2Ri</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:53:50 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:53:50+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(7 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp0nqkspa"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp0nqk"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I mean, I don&#39;t actually mind pandas particularly, but another thing you can do - if you want - is use sqlalchemy against a transient in-memory sqlite.  Then use the same sqlalchemy stuff directly, as you would against real database.   Faster than you might think (in-memory, duh).</p>
+
+<pre><code>import sqlalchemy
+sql_engine = sqlalchemy.create_engine(&#39;sqlite+pysqlite:///:memory:&#39;)
+with sql_engine.connect() as sql_conn:
+   sql_result = sql_conn.execute(sqlalchemy.text(&quot;SELECT &#39;Hello, World!&#39;;&quot;))
+   print(sql_result.all())
+</code></pre>
+
+<p>=&gt;</p>
+
+<pre><code>[(&#39;Hello, World!&#39;,)]
+</code></pre>
+
+<p>Anyway.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp0nqk/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp0nqk/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp0nqk"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp0nqk" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opprj0w noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opprj0w" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opprj0w" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="dannuic" data-author-fullname="t2_d9bj1" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opprj0w/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opprj0w"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/dannuic" class="author may-blank id-t2_d9bj1" >dannuic</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:13:22 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:13:22+00:00" class="live-timestamp">6 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opprj0wte2"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opprj0w"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I tend to reach for duckdb to create memory models in programs (and before that, I used sqlite). I&#39;ve never needed to replace those implementations due to poor performance and it lets me get down to writing actual program logic faster. SQL, even limited implementations, are way better than trying to roll your own memory model every single time. Plus it&#39;s really easy to pickle state</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opprj0w/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opprj0w/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp0nqk" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opprj0w"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp38dl noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp38dl" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp38dl" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="huge_clock" data-author-fullname="t2_pffep" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp38dl/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp38dl"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/huge_clock" class="author may-blank id-t2_pffep" >huge_clock</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="-3">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="-2">-2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="-1">-1 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:08:57 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:08:57+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(5 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp38dlnm9"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp38dl"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I would like to see a test. SQLite’s SQL implementation is incredibly limited and in-memory databases are notoriously slow and i have tested it.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp38dl/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp38dl/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp0nqk" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp38dl"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp38dl" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp8szk noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp8szk" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp8szk" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="elh0mbre" data-author-fullname="t2_4vmfe" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp8szk/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp8szk"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/elh0mbre" class="author may-blank id-t2_4vmfe" >elh0mbre</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:40:12 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:40:12+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp8szkfrh"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp8szk"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>&gt;  in-memory databases are notoriously slow</p>
+
+<p>wut?  do you mean products that are specifically designed as in memory databases?  Otherwise, &quot;in memory&quot; is as fast as a database gets.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp8szk/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp8szk/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp38dl" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opp8szk"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opp8szk" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppc10r noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppc10r" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppc10r" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="huge_clock" data-author-fullname="t2_pffep" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppc10r/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppc10r"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/huge_clock" class="author may-blank id-t2_pffep" >huge_clock</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="-2">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="-1">-1 points</span><span class="score likes" title="0">0 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:57:23 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:57:23+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppc10rz6s"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppc10r"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Single file “serverless” databases that run server side requests on the client machine. Notably SQLite but also MSAccess and DuckDB. Incredibly poor performance for business analytics. Might be fine for a small website with a limited number of users.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppc10r/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppc10r/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp8szk" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppc10r"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppc10r" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppo9hz noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppo9hz" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppo9hz" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="lood9phee2Ri" data-author-fullname="t2_nbimh" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppo9hz/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppo9hz"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/lood9phee2Ri" class="author may-blank id-t2_nbimh" >lood9phee2Ri</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:58:00 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:58:00+00:00" class="live-timestamp">21 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppo9hzn3h"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppo9hz"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><blockquote>
+<p>Single file “serverless” databases</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p>Are you sure you were testing in transient in-memory mode?  &quot;Single-file&quot; kind of suggests you weren&#39;t, and are misunderstanding things - if you&#39;re hitting a file on persistent storage, of course it&#39;s slower than in-memory, even ssd/nvme is still slower than ram for now.</p>
+
+<p><a href="https://sqlite.org/inmemorydb.html" rel="nofollow">https://sqlite.org/inmemorydb.html</a></p>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>An SQLite database is normally stored in a single ordinary disk file. However, in certain circumstances, the database might be stored in memory.</p>
+
+<p>The most common way to force an SQLite database to exist purely in memory is to open the database using the special filename &quot;:memory:&quot;.</p>
+</blockquote>
+
+<p><a href="https://duckdb.org/docs/current/connect/overview#in-memory-database" rel="nofollow">https://duckdb.org/docs/current/connect/overview#in-memory-database</a></p>
+
+<blockquote>
+<p>DuckDB can operate in in-memory mode. In most clients, this can be activated by passing the special value :memory: as the database file</p>
+</blockquote>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppo9hz/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppo9hz/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppc10r" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppo9hz"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppfw6r noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppfw6r" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppfw6r" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Ralwus" data-author-fullname="t2_52t26" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppfw6r/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppfw6r"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Ralwus" class="author may-blank id-t2_52t26" >Ralwus</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="4">4 points</span><span class="score likes" title="5">5 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:17:09 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:17:09+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppfw6re4q"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppfw6r"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Duckdb is incredibly fast. What have you tested that was slow?</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppfw6r/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppfw6r/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opp38dl" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppfw6r"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppfw6r" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppqao4 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppqao4" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppqao4" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="lood9phee2Ri" data-author-fullname="t2_nbimh" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppqao4/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppqao4"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/lood9phee2Ri" class="author may-blank id-t2_nbimh" >lood9phee2Ri</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:07:35 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:07:35+00:00" class="live-timestamp">12 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppqao486a"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppqao4"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Vaguely worth noting in context that despite it also having its own official python binding,  there&#39;s also an SQLAlchemy driver for it</p>
+
+<p><a href="https://duckdb.org/docs/current/clients/python/overview" rel="nofollow">https://duckdb.org/docs/current/clients/python/overview</a></p>
+
+<p><a href="https://pypi.org/project/duckdb-sqlalchemy/" rel="nofollow">https://pypi.org/project/duckdb-sqlalchemy/</a></p>
+
+<p>=&gt;</p>
+
+<pre><code>sql_engine = create_engine(&quot;duckdb:///:memory:&quot;)
+</code></pre>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppqao4/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppqao4/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppfw6r" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppqao4"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_oppal59 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppal59" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppal59" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="elh0mbre" data-author-fullname="t2_4vmfe" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppal59/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppal59"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/elh0mbre" class="author may-blank id-t2_4vmfe" >elh0mbre</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:49:47 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:49:47+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppal59hc7"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppal59"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Not a reason to reach for python or pandas, IMO.</p>
+
+<p>I would reach for SQL, if it&#39;s all in one DB.  If its in microservices, I&#39;d either be looking to consolidate the data for reporting like this in a data warehouse, or stitch the data together myself in a service (given that dotnet is my daily driver, LINQ would replace pandas aptly for me) if I have a good reason for it to not come from a warehouse (low latency requirements, as one example).</p>
+
+<p>I still don&#39;t understand the fascination with microservices, nor do I understand a lot of people&#39;s aversion to learning/understanding SQL.  /shrug</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppal59/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppal59/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppal59"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_oppal59" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppq5mu noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppq5mu" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppq5mu" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="dannuic" data-author-fullname="t2_d9bj1" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppq5mu/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppq5mu"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/dannuic" class="author may-blank id-t2_d9bj1" >dannuic</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 14:06:57 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T14:06:57+00:00" class="live-timestamp">13 minutes ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppq5mujog"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppq5mu"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>SQL has an incredibly stable and sensible syntax, but still gets constant improvement under the hood (especially if you&#39;re using postgres). I have no idea why software developers are so afraid of just learning SQL to do anything with data, either.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppq5mu/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppq5mu/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#oppal59" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppq5mu"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opowojg collapsed collapsed-for-reason &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opowojg" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opowojg" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="youcangotohellgoto" data-author-fullname="t2_dvcja" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opowojg/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opowojg"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[+]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/youcangotohellgoto" class="author may-blank id-t2_dvcja" >youcangotohellgoto</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="collapsed-reason">comment score below threshold</span><span class="score dislikes" title="-6">-6 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="-5">-5 points</span><span class="score likes" title="-4">-4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:28:58 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:28:58+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(2 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opowojgpz3"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opowojg"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>A lot of OOO type programmers - the Java, C# crowd - have no idea about this type of programming. Strongly typed but dynamically defined. It&#39;s just not possible in those languages. And no, it&#39;s not the same as &quot;generics&quot;.</p>
+
+<p>So while pandas has many (many) flaws, it&#39;s a total game changer and people who have never used Python (or R) should experience it.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opowojg/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opowojg/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="true" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opowojg"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opowojg" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_oppfx9g noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_oppfx9g" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_oppfx9g" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="chucker23n" data-author-fullname="t2_39t9i" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppfx9g/" ><p class="parent"><a name="oppfx9g"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/chucker23n" class="author may-blank id-t2_39t9i" >chucker23n</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="3">3 points</span><span class="score likes" title="4">4 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 13:17:18 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T13:17:18+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_oppfx9geum"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_oppfx9g"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>C# has</p>
+
+<ul>
+<li>  inferred types</li>
+<li>  anonymous types</li>
+<li>  <code>dynamic</code></li>
+</ul>
+
+<p>My guess is the first two can handle most of what you’re saying; when they can’t, you can opt into the third.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppfx9g/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/oppfx9g/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/" data-root="false" data-title="Pandas as a reason to learn Python, even if you’re not doing data science" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opowojg" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_oppfx9g"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opp9jic noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp9jic" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp9jic" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="programming" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/programming" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2fwo" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="elh0mbre" data-author-fullname="t2_4vmfe" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/programming/comments/1twhl2t/pandas_as_a_reason_to_learn_python_even_if_youre/opp9jic/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp9jic"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/elh0mbre" class="author may-blank id-t2_4vmfe" >elh0mbre</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:44:10 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:44:10+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 hour ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp9jicjg3"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp9jic"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>C# has anonymous types which I believe are exactly what you&#39;re describing.</p>
+</div>
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+<li><p>A programming language is rarely worth getting worked up over.</p></li>
+<li><p>No zealotry or fanaticism.</p></li>
+<li><p>Be charitable in intent. Err on the side of giving others the benefit of the doubt.</p></li>
+<li><p><a href="https://reddit.com/r/rust/wiki/rules#wiki_4._keep_things_in_perspective">Details</a></p></li>
+</ul>
+
+<h1>No endless relitigation</h1>
+
+<ul>
+<li><p>Avoid re-treading topics that have been long-settled or utterly exhausted.</p></li>
+<li><p>Avoid bikeshedding.</p></li>
+<li><p>This is not an official Rust forum, and cannot fulfill feature requests. Use the official venues for that.</p></li>
+<li><p><a href="https://reddit.com/r/rust/wiki/rules#wiki_5._no_endless_re-litigation">Details</a></p></li>
+</ul>
+
+<h1>No low-effort content</h1>
+
+<ul>
+<li><p>No memes, image macros, etc.</p></li>
+<li><p>Consider the existing content of the subreddit and whether your post fits in. Does it inspire thoughtful discussion?</p></li>
+<li><p>Use properly formatted text to share code samples and error messages. Do not use images.</p></li>
+<li><p>Submissions appearing to contain AI-generated content may be removed at moderator discretion.</p></li>
+<li><p><a href="https://reddit.com/r/rust/wiki/rules#wiki_6._no_low-effort_content">Details</a></p></li>
+</ul>
+
+<hr/>
+
+<h3>Useful Links</h3>
+
+<h1>Megathreads</h1>
+
+<p>Most links here will now take you to a search page listing posts with the relevant flair. The latest megathread for that flair should be the top result.</p>
+
+<ul>
+<li><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/14921t7/alternative_rust_discussion_venues/">Alternative Rust Discussion Venues</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/search?sort=new&amp;restrict_sr=on&amp;q=flair%3A%F0%9F%93%A1%2Bofficial%2Bblog">Official Blog Posts</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/search?sort=new&amp;restrict_sr=on&amp;q=flair%3A%F0%9F%AB%B1%F0%9F%8F%BB%E2%80%8D%F0%9F%AB%B2%F0%9F%8F%BE%2Bfoundation">Rust Foundation Posts</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/search?sort=new&amp;restrict_sr=on&amp;q=flair%3A%F0%9F%99%8B%2Bquestions%2Bmegathread">Got a Question?</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/search?sort=new&amp;restrict_sr=on&amp;q=flair%3A%F0%9F%90%9D%2Bactivity%2Bmegathread">What&#39;s Everyone Working On?</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/search?sort=new&amp;restrict_sr=on&amp;q=flair%3A%F0%9F%92%BC%2Bjobs%2Bmegathread">Who&#39;s Hiring? Jobs Threads</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/search?sort=new&amp;restrict_sr=on&amp;q=flair%3A%F0%9F%93%85%2Bthis%2Bweek%2Bin%2Brust">This Week in Rust</a></li>
+</ul>
+
+<h1>Official Resources</h1>
+
+<ul>
+<li><a href="https://www.rust-lang.org">Official Website</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://blog.rust-lang.org/">Official Blog</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://this-week-in-rust.org/">This Week In Rust</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://www.rust-lang.org/install.html">Installers</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/">Source Code</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues">Bug Tracker</a></li>
+</ul>
+
+<h1>Learn Rust</h1>
+
+<ul>
+<li><a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/">The Rust E-Book</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/index.html">Stdlib API Reference</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/rust-by-example/index.html">Rust By Example</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rustlings">Rustlings</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://play.rust-lang.org/">Online Playground</a></li>
+</ul>
+
+<h1>Discussion Platforms</h1>
+
+<ul>
+<li><a href="https://users.rust-lang.org/">Official Users Forum</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://discord.gg/rust-lang-community">Community Discord</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://chat.mozilla.org/#/room/#rust:mozilla.org">Mozilla Matrix Chat</a></li>
+<li><a href="https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/rust">Stack Overflow Chat</a></li>
+</ul>
+</div>
+</div></form><div class="bottom"><span class="age">a community for&#32;<time title="Thu Dec 2 21:27:18 2010 UTC" datetime="2010-12-02T21:27:18+00:00">15 years</time></span></div></div></div><div class='spacer'></div><div class='spacer'><div class="sidecontentbox " ><div class="title"><h1>MODERATORS</h1></div><ul class="content"><li class="message-button centered"><a class="c-btn c-btn-primary login-required" href="/message/compose/?to=/r/rust">message the mods</a></li></ul></div></div><div class='spacer'><div class="read-next-container"><aside class="read-next"><header class="read-next-header"><div class="read-next-header-title">discussions in&#32;<a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/?ref=readnext" >r/rust</a></div><nav class="read-next-nav read-next-nav-left"><span class="read-next-button prev">&lt;</span><span class="read-next-button next">&gt;</span></nav><div class="read-next-nav read-next-nav-right"><span class="read-next-dismiss">X</span></div></header><div class="read-next-list"><div class="listing read-next-listing"><div class="listing-contents"><a id="read-next-link-t3_1twbzid" class="read-next-link may-blank" href="/r/rust/comments/1twbzid/this_week_in_rust_654/?ref=readnext"><div class="read-next-meta"><span class="score" title="23">23</span>&#32; &middot;&#32;<span class="comments">3 comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">This Week in Rust #654</div></a><a id="read-next-link-t3_1ttj7d5" class="read-next-link may-blank" href="/r/rust/comments/1ttj7d5/hey_rustaceans_got_a_question_ask_here_232026/?ref=readnext"><div class="read-next-meta"><span class="score" title="13">13</span>&#32; &middot;&#32;<span class="comments">10 comments</span>&#32;</div><div class="read-next-title">Hey Rustaceans! 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}</style><div id="siteTable" class="sitetable linklisting"><div class=" thing id-t3_1tvo7wu linkflair linkflair-postflair-user-question odd&#32; link self" id="thing_t3_1tvo7wu" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t3_1tvo7wu" data-type="link" data-gildings="0" data-whitelist-status="all_ads" data-is-gallery="false" data-author="Informal-Baseball209" data-author-fullname="t2_3tsrabr5s" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-timestamp="1780490619000" data-url="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-domain="self.rust" data-rank="" data-comments-count="36" data-score="89" data-promoted="false" data-nsfw="false" data-spoiler="false" data-oc="false" data-num-crossposts="0" data-context="comments" ><p class="parent"></p><span class="rank"></span><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="score dislikes" title="88">88</div><div class="score unvoted" title="89">89</div><div class="score likes" title="90">90</div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="top-matter"><p class="title"><a class="title may-blank " data-event-action="title" href="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" tabindex="1" >Learning Rust (for fun) because sick of AI</a><span class="linkflairlabel " title="🙋 seeking help &amp; advice">🙋 seeking help &amp; advice</span>&#32;<span class="domain">(<a href="/r/rust/">self.rust</a>)</span></p><p class="tagline ">submitted&#32;<time title="Wed Jun 3 12:43:39 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-03T12:43:39+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 day ago</time>&#32;by&#32;<a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Informal-Baseball209" class="author may-blank id-t2_3tsrabr5s" >Informal-Baseball209</a><span class="userattrs"></span></p></div><div class="expando expando-uninitialized" data-pin-condition="function() {return this.style.display != 'none';}" ><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t3_1tvo7wucd6"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t3_1tvo7wu"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Yo guys, to give you a bit of background: I’m not a developer. I’m an IT project manager who enjoys programming for fun and for automating my  workflows. I use Python and Bash almost exclusively.</p>
+
+<p>Over the past year, I’ve started to feel that improving my Python skills doesn’t make much sense for me anymore, because I can simply ask AI to do it and, after some time and debugging, I usually get the result I wanted. That’s great for the efficiency of my work, but it doesn’t really satisfy the joy of solving problems myself.</p>
+
+<p>And that brings me to the reason why I started learning Rust: for fun and for problem-solving. I’m currently going through &quot;The Rust Book&quot; and, at the same time, working on Advent of Code 2025 so I can learn Rust in practice.</p>
+
+<p>My question is: do you have any recommendations on what to focus on, what to avoid for now, and how to approach learning Rust? Sure, I know the usual advice: build a CLI tool, make something I actually use and understand, and so on. But I’m more interested in the kind of advice that only clicked for you after hundreds of hours of using Rust.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form></div><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-event-action="comments" class="bylink comments may-blank" rel="nofollow" >36 comments</a></li><li class="share"><a class="post-sharing-button" href="javascript: void 0;">share</a></li><li class="link-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="#">save</a></li><li><form action="/post/hide" method="post" class="state-button hide-button"><input type="hidden" name="executed" value="hidden" /><span><a href="javascript:void(0)" class=" " data-event-action="hide" onclick="change_state(this, 'hide', hide_thing);">hide</a></span></form></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t3_1tvo7wu"></div></div><div class="child" ></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class='commentarea'><div class="panestack-title"><span class="title">all 36 comments</span></div><div class="menuarea"><div class="spacer"><span class="dropdown-title lightdrop">sorted by:&#32;</span><div class="dropdown lightdrop" onclick="open_menu(this)"><span class="selected">best</span></div><div class="drop-choices lightdrop"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/?sort=top" class="choice" >top</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/?sort=new" class="choice" >new</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/?sort=controversial" class="choice" >controversial</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/?sort=old" class="choice" >old</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/?sort=random" class="hidden choice" >random</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/?sort=qa" class="choice" >q&amp;a</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/?sort=live" class="hidden choice" >live (beta)</a></div></div><div class="spacer"></div></div><section class="infobar commentsignupbar"><div class="commentsignupbar__container"><a href="/login" class="login-required commentsignupbar__link-wrapper"><textarea class="commentsignupbar__textarea"></textarea><div class="commentsignupbar__textarea-above"><h2 class="commentsignupbar__title">Want to add to the discussion?</h2><p class="commentsignupbar__desc">Post a comment!</p><div class="commentsignupbar__cta-container"><span class="c-btn c-btn-primary commentsignupbar__cta-button">Create an account</span></div></div></a></div></section><div id="siteTable_t3_1tvo7wu" class="sitetable nestedlisting"><div class=" thing id-t1_opi7knz noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opi7knz" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opi7knz" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Active-Force2979" data-author-fullname="t2_2c1tlg2vby" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opi7knz/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opi7knz"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Active-Force2979" class="author may-blank id-t2_2c1tlg2vby" >Active-Force2979</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="27">27 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="28">28 points</span><span class="score likes" title="29">29 points</span>&#32;<time title="Wed Jun 3 12:48:46 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-03T12:48:46+00:00" class="live-timestamp">1 day ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opi7knz8v5"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opi7knz"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>good luck </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>That said, a deep understanding of lifetimes will take time to sink in, so be patient. </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+
+<p>I spent a lot of time initially learning Rust by working on code for little toy projects and definitely learned a lot in that process. But the real lessons didn&#39;t come until I tackled something that was providing me a lot of value. Obviously, not everyone has a project idea up their sleeve that they know will provide them with some value. So start with something dead simple.</p>
+
+<p>Rust is a considerably more demanding language than Python. There are many layers to it. Don&#39;t feel overwhelmed when you get to sections of the Rust book that talk about more advanced concepts. Sometimes you&#39;ll read about something and feel like &quot;do I need to use this?&quot; and oftentimes the answer is no, at least not yet. There are some features of Rust you may not even touch for a long time until you decide to do something much more complex (like concurrency, or lifetimes)</p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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+<p>I am keeping an AI terminal to the side to ask questions (what does this compilation error mean? Why can&#39;t I do it this way?) and make cheat sheets for me. That&#39;s helping me a lot too</p>
+</div>
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+
+<p>I just feel that improving my Python skills for my use cases - automation and fun  is pointless now. Automation is already good to go with just a few right prompts. I’ll probably still build most things in Python with help from AI, because it’s more efficient. But I’ll find “something” that I can write in Rust.</p>
+
+<p>I enjoy learning new things and using them in my work. By learning Rust and then building something with it, I can bring a bit of fun into my work, if its makes sense.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opkf58r/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opkf58r/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-root="false" data-title="Learning Rust (for fun) because sick of AI" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opiuxkd" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opkf58r"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opnedc5 noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opnedc5" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opnedc5" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Appropriate-Pin2214" data-author-fullname="t2_blr107lp" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opnedc5/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opnedc5"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Appropriate-Pin2214" class="author may-blank id-t2_blr107lp" >Appropriate-Pin2214</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 04:16:02 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T04:16:02+00:00" class="live-timestamp">11 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opnedc5ps2"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opnedc5"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Rust is hard.   I think AI helps.</p>
+
+<p>When you want to get to WASM, however, python and pytorch... Server-side... fine, but what about air-gapped?</p>
+
+<p>Not selling anything, but as a poc, here are two wasm files, in a browser, backed by Rust/ort and onnx that does redaction in your browser...  <a href="https://www.rulesentry.io" rel="nofollow">https://www.rulesentry.io</a> with GPU inference if your&#39;re setup correctly.</p>
+
+<p>Peace.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opnedc5/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opnedc5/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-root="true" data-title="Learning Rust (for fun) because sick of AI" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opnedc5"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opnjzht noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opnjzht" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opnjzht" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="_w62_" data-author-fullname="t2_dc0mifxa" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opnjzht/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opnjzht"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/_w62_" class="author may-blank id-t2_dc0mifxa" >_w62_</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 04:56:26 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T04:56:26+00:00" class="live-timestamp">10 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opnjzhtba5"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opnjzht"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Try <a href="https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/programming-rust-3rd/9781098176228/" rel="nofollow">Programming Rust</a> the 3rd edition will be available later this year while the 2nd edition worth a read.</p>
+
+<p>The first five chapters gives you a bird&#39;s eye view of the language. Then it comes ownership, traits, genetics etc. The only missing bit is async Rust.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opnjzht/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opnjzht/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-root="true" data-title="Learning Rust (for fun) because sick of AI" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opnjzht"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opo35xj noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opo35xj" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opo35xj" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="tafia97300" data-author-fullname="t2_lscfs" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opo35xj/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opo35xj"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/tafia97300" class="author may-blank id-t2_lscfs" >tafia97300</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted" title="2">2 points</span><span class="score likes" title="3">3 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 07:30:52 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T07:30:52+00:00" class="live-timestamp">7 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opo35xjpr5"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opo35xj"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>i wouldn&#39;t recommend AOC to learn Rust, those problems are too small to really see Rust benefits. I strongly suggest reimplementing something you already know and that is complex enough (not in terms of performance necessarily but more in terms of architecture).   </p>
+
+<p>Rust forces you to think differently, it puts the data in the center and everything gravitates around it (data can have only one owner, you need to move it around etc ...). This may seem &quot;simple&quot; to explain but it has profound implications and very often ends up simplifying a complex problem (do try not to reach for Arc/Rc/RefCell/Mutex).</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opo35xj/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opo35xj/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-root="true" data-title="Learning Rust (for fun) because sick of AI" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opo35xj"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opo35xj" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opovb2l noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opovb2l" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opovb2l" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Informal-Baseball209" data-author-fullname="t2_3tsrabr5s" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opovb2l/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opovb2l"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Informal-Baseball209" class="author submitter may-blank id-t2_3tsrabr5s" >Informal-Baseball209</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/">S</a>]</span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 11:19:55 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T11:19:55+00:00" class="live-timestamp">4 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opovb2l85k"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opovb2l"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p><code>Arc/Rc/RefCell/Mutex</code> — I had never heard of them until now. I read something about them, but I probably don’t want to hear about them again for at least another year. 😃</p>
+
+<p>Thanks for tips.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opovb2l/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opovb2l/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-root="false" data-title="Learning Rust (for fun) because sick of AI" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opo35xj" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opovb2l"></div></div><div class="child"></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div></div><div class="clearleft"></div><div class=" thing id-t1_opjbnrh noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opjbnrh" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opjbnrh" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Suspicious_Word3776" data-author-fullname="t2_2ecv2jedl2" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opjbnrh/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opjbnrh"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Suspicious_Word3776" class="author may-blank id-t2_2ecv2jedl2" >Suspicious_Word3776</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Wed Jun 3 15:55:01 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-03T15:55:01+00:00" class="live-timestamp">23 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(0 children)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opjbnrh6z7"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opjbnrh"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>Someone is working on the Keel language in Rust. I would learn it while it&#39;s young. </p>
+</div>
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+
+<p>But as I said in the post, I feel like there is no longer much need for me to learn more Python or Bash, because the things I do with them are already handled pretty well by my AI setup. I’m even running OpenClaw on my home server with OpenAI and a few local models, and I use my agents every day.</p>
+
+<p>But it doesn’t give me the same fun from programming that I had a few years ago. To me, it feels like an AI black box. Yes, I configure it, and now it works for my niches, but mostly I just ask AI how to configure AI, run some experiments, and voilà.</p>
+
+<p>I wrote this in another comment: I like having those moments of “it works.” and then “Why does it work?” And because I’ve never worked with a low-level control language before, Rust is my choice.</p>
+</div>
+</div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opo13jr/" data-event-action="permalink" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >permalink</a></li><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" data-comment="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opo13jr/" data-media="www.redditmedia.com" data-link="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/" data-root="false" data-title="Learning Rust (for fun) because sick of AI" class="embed-comment" >embed</a></li><li class="comment-save-button save-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)">save</a></li><li><a href="#opj38jy" data-event-action="parent" class="bylink" rel="nofollow" >parent</a></li><li class="report-button login-required"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="reportbtn access-required" data-event-action="report">report</a></li><li class="reply-button login-required"><a class="access-required" href="javascript:void(0)" data-event-action="comment" onclick="return reply(this)">reply</a></li></ul><div class="reportform report-t1_opo13jr"></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_opo13jr" class="sitetable listing"><div class=" thing id-t1_opp6h9e noncollapsed &#32; comment " id="thing_t1_opp6h9e" onclick="click_thing(this)" data-fullname="t1_opp6h9e" data-type="comment" data-gildings="0" data-subreddit="rust" data-subreddit-prefixed="r/rust" data-subreddit-fullname="t5_2s7lj" data-subreddit-type="public" data-author="Fancyness" data-author-fullname="t2_n9z98" data-replies="0" data-permalink="/r/rust/comments/1tvo7wu/learning_rust_for_fun_because_sick_of_ai/opp6h9e/" ><p class="parent"><a name="opp6h9e"></a></p><div class="midcol unvoted" ><div class="arrow up login-required access-required" data-event-action="upvote" role="button" aria-label="upvote" tabindex="0" ></div><div class="arrow down login-required access-required" data-event-action="downvote" role="button" aria-label="downvote" tabindex="0" ></div></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="tagline"><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="expand" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">[–]</a><a href="https://old.reddit.com/user/Fancyness" class="author may-blank id-t2_n9z98" >Fancyness</a><span class="userattrs"></span>&#32;<span class="score dislikes" title="0">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted" title="1">1 point</span><span class="score likes" title="2">2 points</span>&#32;<time title="Thu Jun 4 12:27:14 2026 UTC" datetime="2026-06-04T12:27:14+00:00" class="live-timestamp">2 hours ago</time>&nbsp;<a href="javascript:void(0)" class="numchildren" onclick="return togglecomment(this)">(1 child)</a></p><form action="#" class="usertext warn-on-unload" onsubmit="return post_form(this, 'editusertext')" id="form-t1_opp6h9emnq"><input type="hidden" name="thing_id" value="t1_opp6h9e"/><div class="usertext-body may-blank-within md-container " ><div class="md"><p>I imagine it like using Linux and when having a problem copy pasting some commands that were suggested in online forums. Did I always want to know what every single command in its entire form means? Certainly not. It doesn’t matter as long as the machine just behaves as desired. </p>
+
+<p>But there are Situations where you want to know exactly what is going on and where you just want to understand every single bit of what is happening so you can tweak it if desired. AI doesn’t take that away from you. It enables you to get rid of all the boilerplate that can eat you alive and to focus on the important parts of your project. AI has a very negative connotation between Software Developers because it is forced upon them by their empoyers and it drastically changes how you work: often Developers don’t create anymore but just doing code reviews of ai generated code which can be very frustrating. It’s this sense of not being in control of anything, that truly sucks. But objectively it doesn’t take anything away from the programmer, it just adds more possibilities. No one forces you to fight with bash commands. You still can do it, but you don’t need to. I think AI is empowering and I find it hillarious for being downvoted for this opinion. We live in the best times when it comes to programming. We have the best tools today that ever existed</p>
+</div>
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+
+<p>I am not a developer; I just like to create things for my niches. Most of the time, it is faster with AI, and as you said, it almost does not matter how it works. But for me, learning Rust is just for the joy of learning. I do not need to ask AI what an error means, what the best way to do something is, or why, at least for now.</p>
+
+<p>For example, in my OpenClaw setup folder, I have a “Rust learning” folder and a few prompts that forbid my agent from giving me direct solutions. It can only give me hints based on my current level and progress through The Rust Book and code that I wrote. Even though I have this setup, I still prefer reading the docs on my own because I like doing it this way, and nothing pushes me to be faster or more efficient.</p>
+
+<p>I think Linus Torvalds said that now is a great time to be a developer because AI is so helpful. Having the knowledge of how to work with AI and how to write code is a huge benefit for many good developers. But the message “AI will take your job” is real. Companies are willing to pay cloud AI providers millions and push their employees to use AI no matter what, which does not help the situation.</p>
+</div>
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+
+<p>Similar to you, I often struggle to come up with ideas on what to work on without getting bogged down in the specification, tests, etc. Codecrafters really lets you focus on the implementation.</p>
+
+<p>It’s a bit pricey, but take a look at the free courses to see what it’s like. </p>
+</div>
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+</div>
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diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/Cargo.toml b/crates/webclaw-fetch/Cargo.toml
index 3bf5401..de3036b 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/Cargo.toml
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/Cargo.toml
@@ -13,8 +13,12 @@ thiserror = { workspace = true }
 tracing = { workspace = true }
 tokio = { workspace = true }
 async-trait = "0.1"
-wreq = { version = "6.0.0-rc.28", features = ["cookies", "gzip", "brotli", "zstd", "deflate"] }
-wreq-util = "3.0.0-rc.10"
+# Pinned to exact pre-release versions: wreq/wreq-util are release candidates
+# with no semver stability between rc.N builds (rc.29 broke the TLS + Response
+# API). An exact pin keeps `cargo build`, `cargo install` (which ignores
+# Cargo.lock), and the release workflow all on the version that compiles.
+wreq = { version = "=6.0.0-rc.28", features = ["cookies", "gzip", "brotli", "zstd", "deflate"] }
+wreq-util = "=3.0.0-rc.10"
 http = "1"
 bytes = "1"
 url = "2"
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/client.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/client.rs
index e147337..2bfd8c5 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/client.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/client.rs
@@ -95,12 +95,30 @@ struct Response {
 /// per page in collapse_whitespace + strip_markdown).
 const MAX_BODY_BYTES: u64 = 50 * 1024 * 1024;
 
+/// Running decompression-bomb guard: reject as soon as the bytes already
+/// buffered plus the next decompressed chunk would cross [`MAX_BODY_BYTES`].
+/// Saturating arithmetic so a huge chunk length can't wrap the sum.
+fn check_body_ceiling(buffered: usize, next_chunk: usize) -> Result<(), FetchError> {
+    let total = (buffered as u64).saturating_add(next_chunk as u64);
+    if total > MAX_BODY_BYTES {
+        return Err(FetchError::BodyDecode(format!(
+            "response body exceeds cap {MAX_BODY_BYTES} bytes (decompressed)"
+        )));
+    }
+    Ok(())
+}
+
 impl Response {
-    /// Buffer a wreq response into an owned Response. Rejects bodies that
-    /// advertise a Content-Length beyond [`MAX_BODY_BYTES`] before we pay
-    /// the allocation, and truncates after the fact as a belt-and-braces
-    /// check against a lying server.
-    async fn from_wreq(resp: wreq::Response) -> Result<Self, FetchError> {
+    /// Buffer a wreq response into an owned Response.
+    ///
+    /// Rejects bodies that advertise a Content-Length beyond
+    /// [`MAX_BODY_BYTES`] before we pay any allocation, then streams the
+    /// body chunk-by-chunk while enforcing a running ceiling. `chunk()`
+    /// yields *post-decompression* bytes (gzip/brotli/zstd/deflate are
+    /// negotiated), so a tiny compressed payload that inflates to
+    /// gigabytes is aborted as soon as the accumulated size crosses the
+    /// cap — it never gets fully buffered in memory.
+    async fn from_wreq(mut resp: wreq::Response) -> Result<Self, FetchError> {
         if let Some(len) = resp.content_length()
             && len > MAX_BODY_BYTES
         {
@@ -111,21 +129,22 @@ impl Response {
         let status = resp.status().as_u16();
         let url = resp.uri().to_string();
         let headers = resp.headers().clone();
-        let body = resp
-            .bytes()
+
+        let mut buf = bytes::BytesMut::new();
+        while let Some(chunk) = resp
+            .chunk()
             .await
-            .map_err(|e| FetchError::BodyDecode(e.to_string()))?;
-        if body.len() as u64 > MAX_BODY_BYTES {
-            return Err(FetchError::BodyDecode(format!(
-                "response body {} bytes exceeds cap {MAX_BODY_BYTES}",
-                body.len()
-            )));
+            .map_err(|e| FetchError::BodyDecode(e.to_string()))?
+        {
+            check_body_ceiling(buf.len(), chunk.len())?;
+            buf.extend_from_slice(&chunk);
         }
+
         Ok(Self {
             status,
             url,
             headers,
-            body,
+            body: buf.freeze(),
         })
     }
 
@@ -141,9 +160,6 @@ impl Response {
     fn body(&self) -> &[u8] {
         &self.body
     }
-    fn is_success(&self) -> bool {
-        (200..300).contains(&self.status)
-    }
 
     fn text(&self) -> std::borrow::Cow<'_, str> {
         String::from_utf8_lossy(&self.body)
@@ -199,6 +215,8 @@ impl FetchClient {
                         config.timeout,
                         &config.headers,
                         config.proxy.as_deref(),
+                        config.follow_redirects,
+                        config.max_redirects,
                     )
                 })
                 .collect::<Result<Vec<_>, _>>()?;
@@ -218,7 +236,14 @@ impl FetchClient {
                 .iter()
                 .map(|proxy| {
                     let v = *variants.choose(&mut rng).unwrap();
-                    crate::tls::build_client(v, config.timeout, &config.headers, Some(proxy))
+                    crate::tls::build_client(
+                        v,
+                        config.timeout,
+                        &config.headers,
+                        Some(proxy),
+                        config.follow_redirects,
+                        config.max_redirects,
+                    )
                 })
                 .collect::<Result<Vec<_>, _>>()?;
 
@@ -261,10 +286,48 @@ impl FetchClient {
         self.cloud.as_deref()
     }
 
+    /// Fetch a URL with per-site rescue paths: Reddit URLs redirect to the
+    /// `.json` API, and Akamai-style challenge responses trigger a homepage
+    /// cookie warmup and a retry. Returns the same `FetchResult` shape as
+    /// [`Self::fetch`] so every caller (CLI, MCP, OSS server, production
+    /// server) benefits without shape churn.
+    ///
+    /// This is the method most callers want. Use plain [`Self::fetch`] only
+    /// when you need literal no-rescue behavior (e.g. inside the rescue
+    /// logic itself to avoid recursion).
+    pub async fn fetch_smart(&self, url: &str) -> Result<FetchResult, FetchError> {
+        // Reddit: fetch old.reddit.com for stable server-rendered HTML.
+        // The JSON API is blocked; old.reddit.com works without JS or auth.
+        let owned;
+        let url = if crate::reddit::is_reddit_url(url) {
+            owned = crate::reddit::to_old_reddit_url(url);
+            owned.as_str()
+        } else {
+            url
+        };
+
+        let resp = self.fetch(url).await?;
+
+        // Akamai / bazadebezolkohpepadr challenge: visit the homepage to
+        // collect warmup cookies (_abck, bm_sz, etc.), then retry.
+        if is_challenge_html(&resp.html)
+            && let Some(homepage) = extract_homepage(url)
+        {
+            debug!("challenge detected, warming cookies via {homepage}");
+            let _ = self.fetch(&homepage).await;
+            if let Ok(retry) = self.fetch(url).await {
+                return Ok(retry);
+            }
+        }
+
+        Ok(resp)
+    }
+
     /// Fetch a URL and return the raw HTML + response metadata.
     ///
     /// Automatically retries on transient failures (network errors, 5xx, 429)
-    /// with exponential backoff: 0s, 1s (2 attempts total).
+    /// with exponential backoff: 0s, 1s (2 attempts total). No per-site
+    /// rescue logic; use [`Self::fetch_smart`] for that.
     #[instrument(skip(self), fields(url = %url))]
     pub async fn fetch(&self, url: &str) -> Result<FetchResult, FetchError> {
         let delays = [Duration::ZERO, Duration::from_secs(1)];
@@ -324,6 +387,8 @@ impl FetchClient {
         url: &str,
         extra: &[(&str, &str)],
     ) -> Result<FetchResult, FetchError> {
+        let parsed_url = crate::url_security::validate_public_http_url(url).await?;
+        let url = parsed_url.as_str();
         let start = Instant::now();
         let client = self.pick_client(url);
 
@@ -408,22 +473,19 @@ impl FetchClient {
         url: &str,
         options: &webclaw_core::ExtractionOptions,
     ) -> Result<webclaw_core::ExtractionResult, FetchError> {
-        // Reddit fallback: use their JSON API to get post + full comment tree.
-        if crate::reddit::is_reddit_url(url) {
-            let json_url = crate::reddit::json_url(url);
-            debug!("reddit detected, fetching {json_url}");
+        let parsed_url = crate::url_security::validate_public_http_url(url).await?;
+        let url = parsed_url.as_str();
 
-            let client = self.pick_client(url);
-            let resp = client.get(&json_url).send().await?;
-            let response = Response::from_wreq(resp).await?;
-            if response.is_success() {
-                let bytes = response.body();
-                match crate::reddit::parse_reddit_json(bytes, url) {
-                    Ok(result) => return Ok(result),
-                    Err(e) => warn!("reddit json fallback failed: {e}, falling back to HTML"),
-                }
-            }
-        }
+        // Reddit: rewrite to old.reddit.com for stable server-rendered HTML.
+        // webclaw-core's Reddit fast path then parses the thread structure.
+        let reddit_owned;
+        let url = if crate::reddit::is_reddit_url(url) {
+            reddit_owned = crate::reddit::to_old_reddit_url(url);
+            debug!("reddit: rewriting to {reddit_owned}");
+            reddit_owned.as_str()
+        } else {
+            url
+        };
 
         let start = Instant::now();
         let client = self.pick_client(url);
@@ -436,7 +498,7 @@ impl FetchClient {
             && let Some(homepage) = extract_homepage(url)
         {
             debug!("challenge detected, warming cookies via {homepage}");
-            let _ = client.get(&homepage).send().await;
+            let _ = self.fetch(&homepage).await;
             let resp = client.get(url).send().await?;
             response = Response::from_wreq(resp).await?;
             debug!("retried after cookie warmup: status={}", response.status());
@@ -713,22 +775,27 @@ fn is_pdf_content_type(headers: &http::HeaderMap) -> bool {
 
 /// Detect if a response looks like a bot protection challenge page.
 fn is_challenge_response(response: &Response) -> bool {
-    let len = response.body().len();
+    let body_len = response.body().len();
+    if body_len > 15_000 || body_len == 0 {
+        return false;
+    }
+    is_challenge_html(response.text().as_ref())
+}
+
+/// Same as `is_challenge_response`, operating on a body string directly
+/// so callers holding a `FetchResult` can reuse the heuristic.
+fn is_challenge_html(html: &str) -> bool {
+    let len = html.len();
     if len > 15_000 || len == 0 {
         return false;
     }
-
-    let text = response.text();
-    let lower = text.to_lowercase();
-
+    let lower = html.to_lowercase();
     if lower.contains("<title>challenge page</title>") {
         return true;
     }
-
     if lower.contains("bazadebezolkohpepadr") && len < 5_000 {
         return true;
     }
-
     false
 }
 
@@ -821,6 +888,28 @@ mod tests {
         assert!(err.result.is_err());
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn body_ceiling_allows_under_cap() {
+        assert!(check_body_ceiling(0, 1024).is_ok());
+        assert!(check_body_ceiling(MAX_BODY_BYTES as usize - 1, 1).is_ok());
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn body_ceiling_rejects_at_and_over_cap() {
+        // Exactly at the cap is allowed; one byte over is rejected.
+        assert!(check_body_ceiling(MAX_BODY_BYTES as usize, 1).is_err());
+        // A small buffer plus a huge inflated chunk (decompression bomb)
+        // is caught on the very first oversized chunk.
+        let err = check_body_ceiling(16, 64 * 1024 * 1024).unwrap_err();
+        assert!(matches!(err, FetchError::BodyDecode(_)));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn body_ceiling_saturates_on_overflow() {
+        // usize::MAX chunk must not wrap the running sum to a small value.
+        assert!(check_body_ceiling(usize::MAX, usize::MAX).is_err());
+    }
+
     #[test]
     fn test_batch_extract_result_struct() {
         let err = BatchExtractResult {
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/cloud.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/cloud.rs
index 3bad383..7d4978e 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/cloud.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/cloud.rs
@@ -810,13 +810,18 @@ mod tests {
 
     // --- CloudClient construction ------------------------------------------
 
+    // `WEBCLAW_API_KEY` is process-global; cargo runs tests in parallel
+    // threads. Without serialization, a test that sets the var can race a
+    // test asserting it is absent. This lock makes the env-mutating
+    // CloudClient tests mutually exclusive (poison-tolerant: a panicking
+    // test must not wedge the others).
+    static ENV_LOCK: std::sync::Mutex<()> = std::sync::Mutex::new(());
+
     #[test]
     fn cloud_client_explicit_key_wins_over_env() {
-        // SAFETY: this test mutates process env. Serial tests only.
-        // Set env to something, pass an explicit key, explicit should win.
-        // (We don't actually *call* the API, just check the struct stored
-        // the right key.)
-        // rustc std::env::set_var is unsafe in newer toolchains.
+        let _guard = ENV_LOCK.lock().unwrap_or_else(|e| e.into_inner());
+        // SAFETY: env mutation is serialized by ENV_LOCK; set_var/remove_var
+        // are unsafe on the 2024 toolchain. Explicit key must beat the env.
         unsafe {
             std::env::set_var("WEBCLAW_API_KEY", "from-env");
         }
@@ -829,6 +834,9 @@ mod tests {
 
     #[test]
     fn cloud_client_none_when_empty() {
+        let _guard = ENV_LOCK.lock().unwrap_or_else(|e| e.into_inner());
+        // SAFETY: env mutation serialized by ENV_LOCK. Clearing the var
+        // (incl. any ambient runner value) is what makes this deterministic.
         unsafe {
             std::env::remove_var("WEBCLAW_API_KEY");
         }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/amazon_product.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/amazon_product.rs
index fed6b9f..e374b75 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/amazon_product.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/amazon_product.rs
@@ -30,6 +30,7 @@ use std::sync::OnceLock;
 
 use regex::Regex;
 use serde_json::{Value, json};
+use url::Url;
 
 use super::ExtractorInfo;
 use crate::cloud::{self, CloudError};
@@ -52,8 +53,10 @@ pub const INFO: ExtractorInfo = ExtractorInfo {
 };
 
 pub fn matches(url: &str) -> bool {
-    let host = host_of(url);
-    if !is_amazon_host(host) {
+    let Some(host) = host_of(url) else {
+        return false;
+    };
+    if !is_amazon_host(&host) {
         return false;
     }
     parse_asin(url).is_some()
@@ -162,17 +165,41 @@ pub fn parse(html: &str, url: &str, asin: &str) -> Value {
 // URL helpers
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
-fn host_of(url: &str) -> &str {
-    url.split("://")
-        .nth(1)
-        .unwrap_or(url)
-        .split('/')
-        .next()
-        .unwrap_or("")
+fn host_of(url: &str) -> Option<String> {
+    let parsed = Url::parse(url).ok()?;
+    if !parsed.username().is_empty() || parsed.password().is_some() {
+        return None;
+    }
+    parsed.host_str().map(|host| host.to_ascii_lowercase())
 }
 
 fn is_amazon_host(host: &str) -> bool {
-    host.starts_with("www.amazon.") || host.starts_with("amazon.")
+    const AMAZON_HOSTS: &[&str] = &[
+        "amazon.ae",
+        "amazon.ca",
+        "amazon.cn",
+        "amazon.co.jp",
+        "amazon.co.uk",
+        "amazon.com",
+        "amazon.com.au",
+        "amazon.com.be",
+        "amazon.com.br",
+        "amazon.com.mx",
+        "amazon.com.tr",
+        "amazon.de",
+        "amazon.eg",
+        "amazon.es",
+        "amazon.fr",
+        "amazon.in",
+        "amazon.it",
+        "amazon.nl",
+        "amazon.pl",
+        "amazon.sa",
+        "amazon.se",
+        "amazon.sg",
+    ];
+    let normalized = host.strip_prefix("www.").unwrap_or(host);
+    AMAZON_HOSTS.contains(&normalized)
 }
 
 /// Pull a 10-char ASIN out of any recognised Amazon URL shape:
@@ -347,6 +374,9 @@ mod tests {
         assert!(matches("https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHX1W1XY"));
         assert!(matches("https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CHX1W1XY/"));
         assert!(matches("https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0CHX1W1XY?psc=1"));
+        assert!(matches("https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0CHX1W1XY"));
+        assert!(matches("https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0CHX1W1XY"));
+        assert!(matches("https://www.amazon.in/dp/B0CHX1W1XY"));
         assert!(matches(
             "https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CHX1W1XY/ref=foo"
         ));
@@ -357,6 +387,8 @@ mod tests {
         assert!(!matches("https://www.amazon.com/"));
         assert!(!matches("https://www.amazon.com/gp/cart"));
         assert!(!matches("https://example.com/dp/B0CHX1W1XY"));
+        assert!(!matches("https://www.amazon.com@127.0.0.1/dp/B0CHX1W1XY"));
+        assert!(!matches("https://www.amazon.evil.com/dp/B0CHX1W1XY"));
     }
 
     #[test]
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/ebay_listing.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/ebay_listing.rs
index dbc85ab..36f18e9 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/ebay_listing.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/ebay_listing.rs
@@ -12,6 +12,7 @@ use std::sync::OnceLock;
 
 use regex::Regex;
 use serde_json::{Value, json};
+use url::Url;
 
 use super::ExtractorInfo;
 use crate::cloud::{self, CloudError};
@@ -32,8 +33,10 @@ pub const INFO: ExtractorInfo = ExtractorInfo {
 };
 
 pub fn matches(url: &str) -> bool {
-    let host = host_of(url);
-    if !is_ebay_host(host) {
+    let Some(host) = host_of(url) else {
+        return false;
+    };
+    if !is_ebay_host(&host) {
         return false;
     }
     parse_item_id(url).is_some()
@@ -120,17 +123,37 @@ pub fn parse(html: &str, url: &str, item_id: &str) -> Value {
 // URL helpers
 // ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
-fn host_of(url: &str) -> &str {
-    url.split("://")
-        .nth(1)
-        .unwrap_or(url)
-        .split('/')
-        .next()
-        .unwrap_or("")
+fn host_of(url: &str) -> Option<String> {
+    let parsed = Url::parse(url).ok()?;
+    if !parsed.username().is_empty() || parsed.password().is_some() {
+        return None;
+    }
+    parsed.host_str().map(|host| host.to_ascii_lowercase())
 }
 
 fn is_ebay_host(host: &str) -> bool {
-    host.starts_with("www.ebay.") || host.starts_with("ebay.")
+    const EBAY_HOSTS: &[&str] = &[
+        "ebay.at",
+        "ebay.be",
+        "ebay.ca",
+        "ebay.ch",
+        "ebay.co.uk",
+        "ebay.com",
+        "ebay.com.au",
+        "ebay.com.hk",
+        "ebay.com.my",
+        "ebay.com.sg",
+        "ebay.de",
+        "ebay.es",
+        "ebay.fr",
+        "ebay.ie",
+        "ebay.it",
+        "ebay.nl",
+        "ebay.ph",
+        "ebay.pl",
+    ];
+    let normalized = host.strip_prefix("www.").unwrap_or(host);
+    EBAY_HOSTS.contains(&normalized)
 }
 
 /// Pull the numeric item id out of `/itm/{id}` or `/itm/{slug}/{id}`
@@ -273,9 +296,14 @@ mod tests {
             "https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-typewriter/325478156234"
         ));
         assert!(matches("https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325478156234"));
+        assert!(matches("https://www.ebay.ca/itm/325478156234"));
+        assert!(matches("https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/325478156234"));
+        assert!(matches("https://www.ebay.es/itm/325478156234"));
         assert!(!matches("https://www.ebay.com/"));
         assert!(!matches("https://www.ebay.com/sch/foo"));
         assert!(!matches("https://example.com/itm/325478156234"));
+        assert!(!matches("https://www.ebay.com@127.0.0.1/itm/325478156234"));
+        assert!(!matches("https://www.ebay.attacker.com/itm/325478156234"));
     }
 
     #[test]
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/reddit.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/reddit.rs
index 13cdc16..eba8ddb 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/reddit.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/extractors/reddit.rs
@@ -1,12 +1,10 @@
-//! Reddit structured extractor — returns the full post + comment tree
-//! as typed JSON via Reddit's `.json` API.
+//! Reddit structured extractor — parses old.reddit.com HTML.
 //!
-//! The same trick the markdown extractor in `crate::reddit` uses:
-//! appending `.json` to any post URL returns the data the new SPA
-//! frontend would load client-side. Zero antibot, zero JS rendering.
+//! Fetches old.reddit.com (stable server-rendered HTML, no JS required)
+//! and delegates parsing to `webclaw_core::reddit`. Returns a typed JSON
+//! value with `{ url, post, comments }` structure.
 
-use serde::Deserialize;
-use serde_json::{Value, json};
+use serde_json::Value;
 
 use super::ExtractorInfo;
 use crate::error::FetchError;
@@ -24,182 +22,27 @@ pub const INFO: ExtractorInfo = ExtractorInfo {
 };
 
 pub fn matches(url: &str) -> bool {
-    let host = host_of(url);
-    let is_reddit_host = matches!(
-        host,
-        "reddit.com" | "www.reddit.com" | "old.reddit.com" | "np.reddit.com" | "new.reddit.com"
-    );
-    is_reddit_host && url.contains("/comments/")
+    webclaw_core::reddit::is_reddit_url(url) && url.contains("/comments/")
 }
 
 pub async fn extract(client: &dyn Fetcher, url: &str) -> Result<Value, FetchError> {
-    let json_url = build_json_url(url);
-    let resp = client.fetch(&json_url).await?;
+    let fetch_url = crate::reddit::to_old_reddit_url(url);
+    let resp = client.fetch(&fetch_url).await?;
     if resp.status != 200 {
         return Err(FetchError::Build(format!(
-            "reddit api returned status {}",
+            "reddit: unexpected status {}",
             resp.status
         )));
     }
 
-    let listings: Vec<Listing> = serde_json::from_str(&resp.html)
-        .map_err(|e| FetchError::BodyDecode(format!("reddit json parse: {e}")))?;
+    let thread = webclaw_core::reddit::try_extract_thread(&resp.html, url).ok_or_else(|| {
+        FetchError::BodyDecode(
+            "reddit: page structure not recognised — is this a thread URL?".into(),
+        )
+    })?;
 
-    if listings.is_empty() {
-        return Err(FetchError::BodyDecode("reddit response empty".into()));
-    }
-
-    // First listing = the post (single t3 child).
-    let post = listings
-        .first()
-        .and_then(|l| l.data.children.first())
-        .filter(|t| t.kind == "t3")
-        .map(|t| post_json(&t.data))
-        .unwrap_or(Value::Null);
-
-    // Second listing = the comment tree.
-    let comments: Vec<Value> = listings
-        .get(1)
-        .map(|l| l.data.children.iter().filter_map(comment_json).collect())
-        .unwrap_or_default();
-
-    Ok(json!({
-        "url": url,
-        "post": post,
-        "comments": comments,
-    }))
-}
-
-// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-// JSON shapers
-// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-fn post_json(d: &ThingData) -> Value {
-    json!({
-        "id":               d.id,
-        "title":            d.title,
-        "author":           d.author,
-        "subreddit":        d.subreddit_name_prefixed,
-        "permalink":        d.permalink.as_ref().map(|p| format!("https://www.reddit.com{p}")),
-        "url":              d.url_overridden_by_dest,
-        "is_self":          d.is_self,
-        "selftext":         d.selftext,
-        "score":            d.score,
-        "upvote_ratio":     d.upvote_ratio,
-        "num_comments":     d.num_comments,
-        "created_utc":      d.created_utc,
-        "link_flair_text":  d.link_flair_text,
-        "over_18":          d.over_18,
-        "spoiler":          d.spoiler,
-        "stickied":         d.stickied,
-        "locked":           d.locked,
-    })
-}
-
-/// Render a single comment + its reply tree. Returns `None` for non-t1
-/// kinds (the trailing `more` placeholder Reddit injects at depth limits).
-fn comment_json(thing: &Thing) -> Option<Value> {
-    if thing.kind != "t1" {
-        return None;
-    }
-    let d = &thing.data;
-    let replies: Vec<Value> = match &d.replies {
-        Some(Replies::Listing(l)) => l.data.children.iter().filter_map(comment_json).collect(),
-        _ => Vec::new(),
-    };
-    Some(json!({
-        "id":             d.id,
-        "author":         d.author,
-        "body":           d.body,
-        "score":          d.score,
-        "created_utc":    d.created_utc,
-        "is_submitter":   d.is_submitter,
-        "stickied":       d.stickied,
-        "depth":          d.depth,
-        "permalink":      d.permalink.as_ref().map(|p| format!("https://www.reddit.com{p}")),
-        "replies":        replies,
-    }))
-}
-
-// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-// URL helpers
-// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-fn host_of(url: &str) -> &str {
-    url.split("://")
-        .nth(1)
-        .unwrap_or(url)
-        .split('/')
-        .next()
-        .unwrap_or("")
-}
-
-/// Build the Reddit JSON URL. We keep the original host (`www.reddit.com`
-/// or `old.reddit.com` as the caller gave us). Routing through
-/// `old.reddit.com` unconditionally looks appealing but that host has
-/// stricter UA-based blocking than `www.reddit.com`, while the main
-/// host accepts our Chrome-fingerprinted client fine.
-fn build_json_url(url: &str) -> String {
-    let clean = url.split('?').next().unwrap_or(url).trim_end_matches('/');
-    format!("{clean}.json?raw_json=1")
-}
-
-// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-// Reddit JSON types — only fields we render. Everything else is dropped.
-// ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-struct Listing {
-    data: ListingData,
-}
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-struct ListingData {
-    children: Vec<Thing>,
-}
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-struct Thing {
-    kind: String,
-    data: ThingData,
-}
-
-#[derive(Deserialize, Default)]
-struct ThingData {
-    // post (t3)
-    id: Option<String>,
-    title: Option<String>,
-    selftext: Option<String>,
-    subreddit_name_prefixed: Option<String>,
-    url_overridden_by_dest: Option<String>,
-    is_self: Option<bool>,
-    upvote_ratio: Option<f64>,
-    num_comments: Option<i64>,
-    over_18: Option<bool>,
-    spoiler: Option<bool>,
-    stickied: Option<bool>,
-    locked: Option<bool>,
-    link_flair_text: Option<String>,
-
-    // comment (t1)
-    author: Option<String>,
-    body: Option<String>,
-    score: Option<i64>,
-    created_utc: Option<f64>,
-    is_submitter: Option<bool>,
-    depth: Option<i64>,
-    permalink: Option<String>,
-
-    // recursive
-    replies: Option<Replies>,
-}
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-#[serde(untagged)]
-enum Replies {
-    Listing(Listing),
-    #[allow(dead_code)]
-    Empty(String),
+    serde_json::to_value(&thread)
+        .map_err(|e| FetchError::BodyDecode(format!("reddit: serialisation error: {e}")))
 }
 
 #[cfg(test)]
@@ -207,28 +50,17 @@ mod tests {
     use super::*;
 
     #[test]
-    fn matches_reddit_post_urls() {
+    fn matches_thread_urls() {
         assert!(matches(
             "https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc123/some_title/"
         ));
-        assert!(matches(
-            "https://reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc123/some_title"
-        ));
         assert!(matches("https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc123/x/"));
+        assert!(matches("https://reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x"));
     }
 
     #[test]
-    fn rejects_non_post_reddit_urls() {
+    fn rejects_listing_and_non_reddit() {
         assert!(!matches("https://www.reddit.com/r/rust"));
-        assert!(!matches("https://www.reddit.com/user/foo"));
-        assert!(!matches("https://example.com/r/rust/comments/x"));
-    }
-
-    #[test]
-    fn json_url_appends_suffix_and_drops_query() {
-        assert_eq!(
-            build_json_url("https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x/?utm=foo"),
-            "https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x.json?raw_json=1"
-        );
+        assert!(!matches("https://example.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x"));
     }
 }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/lib.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/lib.rs
index ca04bdb..029a7b6 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/lib.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/lib.rs
@@ -15,6 +15,7 @@ pub mod proxy;
 pub mod reddit;
 pub mod sitemap;
 pub mod tls;
+pub mod url_security;
 
 pub use browser::BrowserProfile;
 pub use client::{BatchExtractResult, BatchResult, FetchClient, FetchConfig, FetchResult};
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/reddit.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/reddit.rs
index 7676ccd..bfe4001 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/reddit.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/reddit.rs
@@ -1,172 +1,56 @@
-/// Reddit JSON API fallback for extracting posts + comments without JS rendering.
-///
-/// Reddit's new `shreddit` frontend only SSRs the post body — comments are
-/// loaded client-side. Appending `.json` to any Reddit URL returns the full
-/// comment tree as structured JSON, which we convert to clean markdown.
-use serde::Deserialize;
-use tracing::debug;
-use webclaw_core::{Content, ExtractionResult, Metadata};
+//! Reddit URL helpers for the fetch layer.
+//!
+//! The JSON API (`*.json`) is blocked. We rewrite all Reddit hosts to
+//! `old.reddit.com`, which serves stable server-rendered HTML that
+//! `webclaw-core::reddit` parses directly.
 
-/// Check if a URL points to a Reddit post/comment page.
 pub fn is_reddit_url(url: &str) -> bool {
-    let host = url
-        .split("://")
-        .nth(1)
-        .unwrap_or(url)
-        .split('/')
-        .next()
-        .unwrap_or("");
-    matches!(
-        host,
-        "reddit.com" | "www.reddit.com" | "old.reddit.com" | "np.reddit.com" | "new.reddit.com"
-    )
+    webclaw_core::reddit::is_reddit_url(url)
 }
 
-/// Build the `.json` URL from a Reddit page URL.
-pub fn json_url(url: &str) -> String {
-    let clean = url.split('?').next().unwrap_or(url).trim_end_matches('/');
-    format!("{clean}.json")
+/// Rewrite any Reddit host to old.reddit.com, preserving path and query.
+pub fn to_old_reddit_url(url: &str) -> String {
+    let Some(scheme_end) = url.find("://") else {
+        return url.to_string();
+    };
+    let after = &url[scheme_end + 3..];
+    let host_end = after.find(['/', '?', '#']).unwrap_or(after.len());
+    let scheme = &url[..scheme_end + 3];
+    let rest = &after[host_end..];
+    format!("{scheme}old.reddit.com{rest}")
 }
 
-/// Convert Reddit JSON API response into an ExtractionResult.
-pub fn parse_reddit_json(json_bytes: &[u8], url: &str) -> Result<ExtractionResult, String> {
-    let listings: Vec<Listing> =
-        serde_json::from_slice(json_bytes).map_err(|e| format!("reddit json parse: {e}"))?;
+#[cfg(test)]
+mod tests {
+    use super::*;
 
-    let mut markdown = String::new();
-    let mut title = None;
-    let mut author = None;
-    let mut subreddit = None;
-
-    // First listing = the post itself
-    if let Some(post_listing) = listings.first() {
-        for child in &post_listing.data.children {
-            if child.kind == "t3" {
-                let d = &child.data;
-                title = d.title.clone();
-                author = d.author.clone();
-                subreddit = d.subreddit_name_prefixed.clone();
-
-                if let Some(ref t) = title {
-                    markdown.push_str(&format!("# {t}\n\n"));
-                }
-                if let (Some(a), Some(sr)) = (&author, &subreddit) {
-                    markdown.push_str(&format!("**u/{a}** in {sr}\n\n"));
-                }
-                if let Some(ref body) = d.selftext
-                    && !body.is_empty()
-                {
-                    markdown.push_str(body);
-                    markdown.push_str("\n\n");
-                }
-                if let Some(ref url_field) = d.url_overridden_by_dest
-                    && !url_field.is_empty()
-                {
-                    markdown.push_str(&format!("[Link]({url_field})\n\n"));
-                }
-                markdown.push_str("---\n\n");
-            }
-        }
+    #[test]
+    fn rewrites_www_to_old() {
+        assert_eq!(
+            to_old_reddit_url("https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x/"),
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x/"
+        );
     }
 
-    // Second listing = comment tree
-    if let Some(comment_listing) = listings.get(1) {
-        markdown.push_str("## Comments\n\n");
-        for child in &comment_listing.data.children {
-            render_comment(child, 0, &mut markdown);
-        }
+    #[test]
+    fn rewrites_bare_to_old() {
+        assert_eq!(
+            to_old_reddit_url("https://reddit.com/r/rust/"),
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/"
+        );
     }
 
-    let word_count = markdown.split_whitespace().count();
-    debug!(word_count, "reddit json extracted");
-
-    Ok(ExtractionResult {
-        metadata: Metadata {
-            title,
-            description: None,
-            author,
-            published_date: None,
-            language: Some("en".into()),
-            url: Some(url.to_string()),
-            site_name: subreddit,
-            image: None,
-            favicon: None,
-            word_count,
-        },
-        content: Content {
-            markdown,
-            plain_text: String::new(),
-            links: vec![],
-            images: vec![],
-            code_blocks: vec![],
-            raw_html: None,
-        },
-        domain_data: None,
-        structured_data: vec![],
-    })
-}
-
-fn render_comment(thing: &Thing, depth: usize, out: &mut String) {
-    if thing.kind != "t1" {
-        return;
+    #[test]
+    fn preserves_old_reddit_unchanged() {
+        let url = "https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/abc/x/?context=3";
+        assert_eq!(to_old_reddit_url(url), url);
     }
-    let d = &thing.data;
-    let indent = "  ".repeat(depth);
-    let author = d.author.as_deref().unwrap_or("[deleted]");
-    let body = d.body.as_deref().unwrap_or("[removed]");
-    let score = d.score.unwrap_or(0);
 
-    out.push_str(&format!("{indent}- **u/{author}** ({score} pts)\n"));
-    for line in body.lines() {
-        out.push_str(&format!("{indent}  {line}\n"));
-    }
-    out.push('\n');
-
-    // Recurse into replies
-    if let Some(Replies::Listing(listing)) = &d.replies {
-        for child in &listing.data.children {
-            render_comment(child, depth + 1, out);
-        }
+    #[test]
+    fn preserves_query_and_hash() {
+        assert_eq!(
+            to_old_reddit_url("https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/?sort=top#anchor"),
+            "https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/?sort=top#anchor"
+        );
     }
 }
-
-// --- Reddit JSON types (minimal) ---
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-struct Listing {
-    data: ListingData,
-}
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-struct ListingData {
-    children: Vec<Thing>,
-}
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-struct Thing {
-    kind: String,
-    data: ThingData,
-}
-
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-struct ThingData {
-    // Post fields (t3)
-    title: Option<String>,
-    selftext: Option<String>,
-    subreddit_name_prefixed: Option<String>,
-    url_overridden_by_dest: Option<String>,
-    // Comment fields (t1)
-    author: Option<String>,
-    body: Option<String>,
-    score: Option<i64>,
-    replies: Option<Replies>,
-}
-
-/// Reddit replies can be either a nested Listing or an empty string.
-#[derive(Deserialize)]
-#[serde(untagged)]
-enum Replies {
-    Listing(Listing),
-    #[allow(dead_code)]
-    Empty(String),
-}
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/tls.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/tls.rs
index 308265b..c6c2955 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/tls.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/tls.rs
@@ -5,9 +5,7 @@
 //! PSK, ECH GREASE) and HTTP/2 options (SETTINGS order, pseudo-header order,
 //! stream dependency, priorities) to match real browser fingerprints.
 
-use std::time::Duration;
-
-use std::borrow::Cow;
+use std::{borrow::Cow, io, time::Duration};
 
 use wreq::http2::{
     Http2Options, PseudoId, PseudoOrder, SettingId, SettingsOrder, StreamDependency, StreamId,
@@ -21,6 +19,41 @@ use wreq::{Client, Emulation};
 use crate::browser::BrowserVariant;
 use crate::error::FetchError;
 
+#[derive(Clone, Default)]
+struct PublicDnsResolver;
+
+impl wreq::dns::Resolve for PublicDnsResolver {
+    fn resolve(&self, name: wreq::dns::Name) -> wreq::dns::Resolving {
+        Box::pin(async move {
+            let addrs = tokio::net::lookup_host((name.as_str(), 0))
+                .await
+                .map_err(|e| Box::new(e) as Box<dyn std::error::Error + Send + Sync>)?;
+            let mut public = Vec::new();
+
+            for addr in addrs {
+                if crate::url_security::is_blocked_ip(addr.ip()) {
+                    let err: Box<dyn std::error::Error + Send + Sync> = Box::new(io::Error::new(
+                        io::ErrorKind::PermissionDenied,
+                        "DNS resolved to a blocked private or internal address",
+                    ));
+                    return Err(err);
+                }
+                public.push(addr);
+            }
+
+            if public.is_empty() {
+                let err: Box<dyn std::error::Error + Send + Sync> = Box::new(io::Error::new(
+                    io::ErrorKind::NotFound,
+                    "host did not resolve to any addresses",
+                ));
+                return Err(err);
+            }
+
+            Ok(Box::new(public.into_iter()) as wreq::dns::Addrs)
+        })
+    }
+}
+
 /// Chrome cipher list (TLS 1.3 + TLS 1.2 in Chrome's exact order).
 const CHROME_CIPHERS: &str = "TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:TLS_CHACHA20_POLY1305_SHA256:TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_CHACHA20_POLY1305_SHA256:TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_CHACHA20_POLY1305_SHA256:TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA:TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA:TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA:TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA";
 
@@ -455,6 +488,8 @@ pub fn build_client(
     timeout: Duration,
     extra_headers: &std::collections::HashMap<String, String>,
     proxy: Option<&str>,
+    follow_redirects: bool,
+    max_redirects: u32,
 ) -> Result<Client, FetchError> {
     // SafariIos26 builds its Emulation on top of wreq-util's base instead
     // of from scratch. See `safari_ios_emulation` for why.
@@ -490,17 +525,102 @@ pub fn build_client(
 
     let mut builder = Client::builder()
         .emulation(emulation)
-        .redirect(wreq::redirect::Policy::limited(10))
+        .redirect(ssrf_safe_redirect_policy(
+            follow_redirects,
+            max_redirects as usize,
+        ))
         .cookie_store(true)
         .timeout(timeout);
 
     if let Some(proxy_url) = proxy {
-        let proxy =
-            wreq::Proxy::all(proxy_url).map_err(|e| FetchError::Build(format!("proxy: {e}")))?;
+        let proxy = wreq::Proxy::all(proxy_url).map_err(|_| {
+            FetchError::Build(format!("invalid proxy {}", redact_proxy_url(proxy_url)))
+        })?;
         builder = builder.proxy(proxy);
+    } else {
+        builder = builder.dns_resolver(PublicDnsResolver);
     }
 
     builder
         .build()
         .map_err(|e| FetchError::Build(e.to_string()))
 }
+
+/// Render a proxy URL safe to log: drop any `user:pass@` userinfo so
+/// rotating-proxy credentials never reach error strings or tracing.
+/// Falls back to a constant placeholder when the input does not parse.
+fn redact_proxy_url(raw: &str) -> String {
+    match url::Url::parse(raw) {
+        Ok(mut u) => {
+            // Best-effort: opaque URLs (e.g. no host) reject these setters;
+            // in that case fall through to the placeholder rather than risk
+            // returning the raw string with credentials.
+            if u.set_username("").is_err() || u.set_password(None).is_err() {
+                return "<proxy redacted>".to_string();
+            }
+            u.to_string()
+        }
+        Err(_) => "<proxy redacted>".to_string(),
+    }
+}
+
+fn ssrf_safe_redirect_policy(
+    follow_redirects: bool,
+    max_redirects: usize,
+) -> wreq::redirect::Policy {
+    if !follow_redirects {
+        return wreq::redirect::Policy::none();
+    }
+
+    wreq::redirect::Policy::custom(move |attempt| {
+        if attempt.previous.len() > max_redirects {
+            return attempt.error("too many redirects");
+        }
+
+        attempt.pending(|attempt| async move {
+            let next_url = attempt.uri.to_string();
+            match crate::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&next_url).await {
+                Ok(_) => attempt.follow(),
+                Err(e) => attempt.error(e.to_string()),
+            }
+        })
+    })
+}
+
+#[cfg(test)]
+mod tests {
+    use super::redact_proxy_url;
+
+    #[test]
+    fn redacts_userinfo_from_proxy_url() {
+        let red = redact_proxy_url("http://user123:s3cr3tPass@proxy.example.com:8080");
+        assert!(!red.contains("user123"), "username leaked: {red}");
+        assert!(!red.contains("s3cr3tPass"), "password leaked: {red}");
+        assert!(red.contains("proxy.example.com"), "host lost: {red}");
+        assert!(red.contains("8080"), "port lost: {red}");
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn redacts_long_token_residential_proxy() {
+        // Residential-style: long structured credential with embedded
+        // tokens in the username and special chars in the password.
+        let red =
+            redact_proxy_url("http://acct-zone-resi-country-xx:p@ss-word@gw.proxy.example:12321");
+        assert!(!red.contains("acct-zone-resi"), "username leaked: {red}");
+        assert!(!red.contains("p@ss-word"), "password leaked: {red}");
+        assert!(red.contains("gw.proxy.example"));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn unparseable_proxy_does_not_echo_input() {
+        let red = redact_proxy_url("user:pass@not a url");
+        assert_eq!(red, "<proxy redacted>");
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn proxy_without_credentials_is_preserved() {
+        let red = redact_proxy_url("http://proxy.example.com:3128");
+        assert!(red.contains("proxy.example.com"));
+        assert!(red.contains("3128"));
+    }
+}
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/url_security.rs b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/url_security.rs
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..328879e
--- /dev/null
+++ b/crates/webclaw-fetch/src/url_security.rs
@@ -0,0 +1,203 @@
+//! SSRF guard for every server-side fetch.
+//!
+//! Callers may still do cheap parse validation at the edge, but this
+//! module is the fetch-layer authority because redirects and helper
+//! fetches also pass through it.
+
+use std::net::{IpAddr, Ipv4Addr, Ipv6Addr};
+
+use tokio::net::lookup_host;
+use url::{Host, Url};
+
+use crate::error::FetchError;
+
+/// Parse a caller-provided URL and require an HTTP(S) host.
+pub fn validate_http_url(raw: &str) -> Result<Url, FetchError> {
+    let trimmed = raw.trim();
+    if trimmed.is_empty() {
+        return Err(FetchError::InvalidUrl("URL must not be empty".into()));
+    }
+
+    let parsed =
+        Url::parse(trimmed).map_err(|e| FetchError::InvalidUrl(format!("invalid URL: {e}")))?;
+    match parsed.scheme() {
+        "http" | "https" => {}
+        scheme => {
+            return Err(FetchError::InvalidUrl(format!(
+                "scheme '{scheme}' is not allowed, use http:// or https://"
+            )));
+        }
+    }
+
+    if parsed.host().is_none() {
+        return Err(FetchError::InvalidUrl("URL must include a host".into()));
+    }
+
+    Ok(parsed)
+}
+
+/// Parse, resolve, and reject private/internal destinations.
+///
+/// A domain is rejected if any resolved address is private or reserved.
+/// That is intentionally conservative: mixed public/private DNS answers
+/// are unsafe for server-side fetching.
+pub async fn validate_public_http_url(raw: &str) -> Result<Url, FetchError> {
+    let parsed = validate_http_url(raw)?;
+    validate_url_host_is_public(&parsed).await?;
+    Ok(parsed)
+}
+
+async fn validate_url_host_is_public(url: &Url) -> Result<(), FetchError> {
+    match url.host() {
+        Some(Host::Ipv4(ip)) => reject_blocked_ip(IpAddr::V4(ip)),
+        Some(Host::Ipv6(ip)) => reject_blocked_ip(IpAddr::V6(ip)),
+        Some(Host::Domain(host)) => {
+            let port = url
+                .port_or_known_default()
+                .ok_or_else(|| FetchError::InvalidUrl("URL must include a known port".into()))?;
+            let addrs = lookup_host((host, port))
+                .await
+                .map_err(|e| FetchError::InvalidUrl(format!("failed to resolve host: {e}")))?;
+
+            let mut resolved = false;
+            for addr in addrs {
+                resolved = true;
+                reject_blocked_ip(addr.ip())?;
+            }
+            if !resolved {
+                return Err(FetchError::InvalidUrl(
+                    "host did not resolve to any addresses".into(),
+                ));
+            }
+            Ok(())
+        }
+        None => Err(FetchError::InvalidUrl("URL must include a host".into())),
+    }
+}
+
+fn reject_blocked_ip(ip: IpAddr) -> Result<(), FetchError> {
+    if is_blocked_ip(ip) {
+        Err(FetchError::InvalidUrl(
+            "URL resolves to a blocked private or internal address".into(),
+        ))
+    } else {
+        Ok(())
+    }
+}
+
+/// Return true for IP ranges that should never be fetched server-side.
+pub fn is_blocked_ip(ip: IpAddr) -> bool {
+    match ip {
+        IpAddr::V4(ip) => is_blocked_ipv4(ip),
+        IpAddr::V6(ip) => is_blocked_ipv6(ip),
+    }
+}
+
+fn is_blocked_ipv4(ip: Ipv4Addr) -> bool {
+    let o = ip.octets();
+
+    ip.is_unspecified()
+        || ip.is_loopback()
+        || ip.is_private()
+        || ip.is_link_local()
+        || o[0] == 0
+        || o[0] >= 224
+        || (o[0] == 100 && (64..=127).contains(&o[1]))
+        || (o[0] == 192 && o[1] == 0 && o[2] == 0)
+        || (o[0] == 192 && o[1] == 0 && o[2] == 2)
+        || (o[0] == 198 && (18..=19).contains(&o[1]))
+        || (o[0] == 198 && o[1] == 51 && o[2] == 100)
+        || (o[0] == 203 && o[1] == 0 && o[2] == 113)
+}
+
+fn is_blocked_ipv6(ip: Ipv6Addr) -> bool {
+    let s = ip.segments();
+
+    ip.is_unspecified()
+        || ip.is_loopback()
+        || ip.is_multicast()
+        || (s[0] & 0xfe00) == 0xfc00
+        || (s[0] & 0xffc0) == 0xfe80
+        || (s[0] == 0x0064 && s[1] == 0xff9b && s[2] == 0 && s[3] == 0 && s[4] == 0 && s[5] == 0)
+        || (s[0] == 0x2001 && s[1] == 0x0db8)
+        || embedded_ipv4(ip).is_some_and(is_blocked_ipv4)
+}
+
+fn embedded_ipv4(ip: Ipv6Addr) -> Option<Ipv4Addr> {
+    let s = ip.segments();
+
+    if s[0] == 0 && s[1] == 0 && s[2] == 0 && s[3] == 0 && s[4] == 0 && s[5] == 0xffff {
+        return Some(Ipv4Addr::new(
+            (s[6] >> 8) as u8,
+            s[6] as u8,
+            (s[7] >> 8) as u8,
+            s[7] as u8,
+        ));
+    }
+
+    if s[0] == 0 && s[1] == 0 && s[2] == 0 && s[3] == 0 && s[4] == 0 && s[5] == 0 {
+        return Some(Ipv4Addr::new(
+            (s[6] >> 8) as u8,
+            s[6] as u8,
+            (s[7] >> 8) as u8,
+            s[7] as u8,
+        ));
+    }
+
+    None
+}
+
+#[cfg(test)]
+mod tests {
+    use std::net::{IpAddr, Ipv4Addr, Ipv6Addr};
+
+    use super::{is_blocked_ip, validate_public_http_url};
+
+    #[tokio::test]
+    async fn blocks_ipv4_internal_ranges() {
+        for ip in [
+            Ipv4Addr::new(0, 0, 0, 0),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(10, 0, 0, 1),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(100, 64, 0, 1),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(127, 0, 0, 1),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(169, 254, 169, 254),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(172, 16, 0, 1),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(192, 168, 0, 1),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(192, 0, 0, 8),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(198, 18, 0, 1),
+            Ipv4Addr::new(255, 255, 255, 255),
+        ] {
+            let url = format!("http://{ip}/");
+            assert!(validate_public_http_url(&url).await.is_err(), "{ip}");
+        }
+    }
+
+    #[tokio::test]
+    async fn blocks_ipv6_internal_ranges() {
+        for ip in [
+            Ipv6Addr::LOCALHOST,
+            Ipv6Addr::UNSPECIFIED,
+            "fc00::1".parse().unwrap(),
+            "fe80::1".parse().unwrap(),
+            "64:ff9b::7f00:1".parse().unwrap(),
+            "::ffff:127.0.0.1".parse().unwrap(),
+        ] {
+            assert!(is_blocked_ip(IpAddr::V6(ip)), "{ip}");
+        }
+    }
+
+    #[tokio::test]
+    async fn allows_public_ip_literals() {
+        assert!(
+            validate_public_http_url("https://93.184.216.34/")
+                .await
+                .is_ok()
+        );
+        assert!(is_blocked_ip(IpAddr::V4(Ipv4Addr::new(8, 8, 8, 8))) == false);
+    }
+
+    #[tokio::test]
+    async fn blocks_localhost_domains_after_resolution() {
+        assert!(validate_public_http_url("http://localhost/").await.is_err());
+    }
+}
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-llm/src/chain.rs b/crates/webclaw-llm/src/chain.rs
index 314bf2a..86b0101 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-llm/src/chain.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-llm/src/chain.rs
@@ -34,7 +34,7 @@ impl ProviderChain {
             providers.push(Box::new(openai));
         }
 
-        if let Some(anthropic) = AnthropicProvider::new(None, None) {
+        if let Some(anthropic) = AnthropicProvider::with_base_url(None, None, None) {
             debug!("anthropic configured, adding to chain");
             providers.push(Box::new(anthropic));
         }
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/anthropic.rs b/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/anthropic.rs
index 71ca1f9..e6e43c8 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/anthropic.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/anthropic.rs
@@ -10,23 +10,38 @@ use crate::provider::{CompletionRequest, LlmProvider};
 
 use super::load_api_key;
 
-const ANTHROPIC_API_URL: &str = "https://api.anthropic.com/v1/messages";
+const DEFAULT_ANTHROPIC_BASE_URL: &str = "https://api.anthropic.com/v1";
 const ANTHROPIC_VERSION: &str = "2023-06-01";
 
 pub struct AnthropicProvider {
     client: reqwest::Client,
     key: String,
+    base_url: String,
     default_model: String,
 }
 
 impl AnthropicProvider {
     /// Returns `None` if no API key is available (param or env).
     pub fn new(key_override: Option<String>, model: Option<String>) -> Option<Self> {
+        Self::with_base_url(key_override, None, model)
+    }
+
+    /// Returns `None` if no API key is available (param or env).
+    pub fn with_base_url(
+        key_override: Option<String>,
+        base_url: Option<String>,
+        model: Option<String>,
+    ) -> Option<Self> {
         let key = load_api_key(key_override, "ANTHROPIC_API_KEY")?;
 
         Some(Self {
             client: reqwest::Client::new(),
             key,
+            base_url: base_url
+                .or_else(|| std::env::var("ANTHROPIC_BASE_URL").ok())
+                .unwrap_or_else(|| DEFAULT_ANTHROPIC_BASE_URL.into())
+                .trim_end_matches('/')
+                .to_string(),
             default_model: model.unwrap_or_else(|| "claude-sonnet-4-20250514".into()),
         })
     }
@@ -34,6 +49,14 @@ impl AnthropicProvider {
     pub fn default_model(&self) -> &str {
         &self.default_model
     }
+
+    fn messages_url(&self) -> String {
+        if self.base_url.ends_with("/messages") {
+            self.base_url.clone()
+        } else {
+            format!("{}/messages", self.base_url)
+        }
+    }
 }
 
 #[async_trait]
@@ -74,7 +97,7 @@ impl LlmProvider for AnthropicProvider {
 
         let resp = self
             .client
-            .post(ANTHROPIC_API_URL)
+            .post(self.messages_url())
             .header("x-api-key", &self.key)
             .header("anthropic-version", ANTHROPIC_VERSION)
             .header("content-type", "application/json")
@@ -135,6 +158,11 @@ mod tests {
         assert_eq!(provider.name(), "anthropic");
         assert_eq!(provider.default_model, "claude-sonnet-4-20250514");
         assert_eq!(provider.key, "sk-ant-test");
+        assert_eq!(provider.base_url, "https://api.anthropic.com/v1");
+        assert_eq!(
+            provider.messages_url(),
+            "https://api.anthropic.com/v1/messages"
+        );
     }
 
     #[test]
@@ -151,6 +179,35 @@ mod tests {
         assert_eq!(provider.default_model(), "claude-sonnet-4-20250514");
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn custom_base_url_appends_messages_path() {
+        let provider = AnthropicProvider::with_base_url(
+            Some("sk-ant-test".into()),
+            Some("https://proxy.example.test/anthropic/v1/".into()),
+            None,
+        )
+        .unwrap();
+        assert_eq!(provider.base_url, "https://proxy.example.test/anthropic/v1");
+        assert_eq!(
+            provider.messages_url(),
+            "https://proxy.example.test/anthropic/v1/messages"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn custom_full_messages_url_is_not_doubled() {
+        let provider = AnthropicProvider::with_base_url(
+            Some("sk-ant-test".into()),
+            Some("https://proxy.example.test/v1/messages".into()),
+            None,
+        )
+        .unwrap();
+        assert_eq!(
+            provider.messages_url(),
+            "https://proxy.example.test/v1/messages"
+        );
+    }
+
     // Env var fallback tests mutate process-global state and race with parallel tests.
     // The code path is trivial (load_api_key -> env::var().ok()). Run in isolation if needed:
     //   cargo test -p webclaw-llm env_var -- --ignored --test-threads=1
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/openai.rs b/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/openai.rs
index 6422cc4..3780d8f 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/openai.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-llm/src/providers/openai.rs
@@ -13,6 +13,50 @@ pub struct OpenAiProvider {
     key: String,
     base_url: String,
     default_model: String,
+    response_format: OpenAiResponseFormat,
+}
+
+#[derive(Debug, Clone, Copy, PartialEq, Eq)]
+enum OpenAiResponseFormat {
+    JsonObject,
+    JsonSchema,
+    Text,
+}
+
+impl OpenAiResponseFormat {
+    fn from_env() -> Self {
+        std::env::var("OPENAI_RESPONSE_FORMAT_TYPE")
+            .ok()
+            .and_then(|value| Self::parse(&value))
+            .unwrap_or(Self::JsonObject)
+    }
+
+    fn parse(value: &str) -> Option<Self> {
+        match value.trim().to_ascii_lowercase().as_str() {
+            "" | "json_object" => Some(Self::JsonObject),
+            "json_schema" => Some(Self::JsonSchema),
+            "text" => Some(Self::Text),
+            _ => None,
+        }
+    }
+
+    fn as_response_format(self) -> serde_json::Value {
+        match self {
+            Self::JsonObject => json!({ "type": "json_object" }),
+            Self::JsonSchema => json!({
+                "type": "json_schema",
+                "json_schema": {
+                    "name": "webclaw_response",
+                    "schema": {
+                        "type": "object",
+                        "additionalProperties": true
+                    },
+                    "strict": false
+                }
+            }),
+            Self::Text => json!({ "type": "text" }),
+        }
+    }
 }
 
 impl OpenAiProvider {
@@ -31,23 +75,15 @@ impl OpenAiProvider {
                 .or_else(|| std::env::var("OPENAI_BASE_URL").ok())
                 .unwrap_or_else(|| "https://api.openai.com/v1".into()),
             default_model: model.unwrap_or_else(|| "gpt-4o-mini".into()),
+            response_format: OpenAiResponseFormat::from_env(),
         })
     }
 
     pub fn default_model(&self) -> &str {
         &self.default_model
     }
-}
-
-#[async_trait]
-impl LlmProvider for OpenAiProvider {
-    async fn complete(&self, request: &CompletionRequest) -> Result<String, LlmError> {
-        let model = if request.model.is_empty() {
-            &self.default_model
-        } else {
-            &request.model
-        };
 
+    fn request_body(&self, request: &CompletionRequest, model: &str) -> serde_json::Value {
         let messages: Vec<serde_json::Value> = request
             .messages
             .iter()
@@ -60,7 +96,7 @@ impl LlmProvider for OpenAiProvider {
         });
 
         if request.json_mode {
-            body["response_format"] = json!({ "type": "json_object" });
+            body["response_format"] = self.response_format.as_response_format();
         }
         if let Some(temp) = request.temperature {
             body["temperature"] = json!(temp);
@@ -69,6 +105,21 @@ impl LlmProvider for OpenAiProvider {
             body["max_tokens"] = json!(max);
         }
 
+        body
+    }
+}
+
+#[async_trait]
+impl LlmProvider for OpenAiProvider {
+    async fn complete(&self, request: &CompletionRequest) -> Result<String, LlmError> {
+        let model = if request.model.is_empty() {
+            &self.default_model
+        } else {
+            &request.model
+        };
+
+        let body = self.request_body(request, model);
+
         let url = format!("{}/chat/completions", self.base_url);
         let resp = self
             .client
@@ -136,6 +187,7 @@ mod tests {
         assert_eq!(provider.default_model, "gpt-4o-mini");
         assert_eq!(provider.base_url, "https://api.openai.com/v1");
         assert_eq!(provider.key, "test-key-123");
+        assert_eq!(provider.response_format, OpenAiResponseFormat::JsonObject);
     }
 
     #[test]
@@ -161,6 +213,69 @@ mod tests {
         assert_eq!(provider.default_model(), "gpt-4o-mini");
     }
 
+    #[test]
+    fn json_mode_defaults_to_openai_json_object() {
+        let provider = OpenAiProvider::new(
+            Some("test-key".into()),
+            Some("https://api.openai.com/v1".into()),
+            None,
+        )
+        .unwrap();
+        let req = CompletionRequest {
+            model: String::new(),
+            messages: vec![],
+            temperature: None,
+            max_tokens: None,
+            json_mode: true,
+        };
+        let body = provider.request_body(&req, provider.default_model());
+        assert_eq!(body["response_format"], json!({ "type": "json_object" }));
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn json_schema_response_format_for_compatible_backends() {
+        let mut provider = OpenAiProvider::new(
+            Some("test-key".into()),
+            Some("http://localhost:1234/v1".into()),
+            Some("local-model".into()),
+        )
+        .unwrap();
+        provider.response_format = OpenAiResponseFormat::JsonSchema;
+        let req = CompletionRequest {
+            model: String::new(),
+            messages: vec![],
+            temperature: None,
+            max_tokens: None,
+            json_mode: true,
+        };
+        let body = provider.request_body(&req, provider.default_model());
+        assert_eq!(body["response_format"]["type"], "json_schema");
+        assert_eq!(
+            body["response_format"]["json_schema"]["schema"]["type"],
+            "object"
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn text_response_format_for_lm_studio() {
+        let mut provider = OpenAiProvider::new(
+            Some("test-key".into()),
+            Some("http://localhost:1234/v1".into()),
+            Some("local-model".into()),
+        )
+        .unwrap();
+        provider.response_format = OpenAiResponseFormat::Text;
+        let req = CompletionRequest {
+            model: String::new(),
+            messages: vec![],
+            temperature: None,
+            max_tokens: None,
+            json_mode: true,
+        };
+        let body = provider.request_body(&req, provider.default_model());
+        assert_eq!(body["response_format"], json!({ "type": "text" }));
+    }
+
     // Env var fallback tests mutate process-global state and race with parallel tests.
     // The code path is trivial (load_api_key -> env::var().ok()). Run in isolation if needed:
     //   cargo test -p webclaw-llm env_var -- --ignored --test-threads=1
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-mcp/src/server.rs b/crates/webclaw-mcp/src/server.rs
index 45e8647..497315f 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-mcp/src/server.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-mcp/src/server.rs
@@ -13,7 +13,6 @@ use rmcp::model::{Implementation, ServerCapabilities, ServerInfo};
 use rmcp::{ServerHandler, tool, tool_handler, tool_router};
 use serde_json::json;
 use tracing::{error, info, warn};
-use url::Url;
 
 use webclaw_fetch::cloud::{self, CloudClient, SmartFetchResult};
 
@@ -52,21 +51,12 @@ fn parse_browser(browser: Option<&str>) -> webclaw_fetch::BrowserProfile {
     }
 }
 
-/// Validate that a URL is non-empty and has an http or https scheme.
-fn validate_url(url: &str) -> Result<(), String> {
-    if url.is_empty() {
-        return Err("Invalid URL: must not be empty".into());
-    }
-    match Url::parse(url) {
-        Ok(parsed) if parsed.scheme() == "http" || parsed.scheme() == "https" => Ok(()),
-        Ok(parsed) => Err(format!(
-            "Invalid URL: scheme '{}' not allowed, must start with http:// or https://",
-            parsed.scheme()
-        )),
-        Err(e) => Err(format!(
-            "Invalid URL: {e}. Must start with http:// or https://"
-        )),
-    }
+/// Validate that a URL is public HTTP(S), matching the fetch-layer SSRF guard.
+async fn validate_url(url: &str) -> Result<(), String> {
+    webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(url)
+        .await
+        .map(|_| ())
+        .map_err(|e| format!("Invalid URL: {e}"))
 }
 
 /// Timeout for local fetch calls (prevents hanging on tarpitting servers).
@@ -172,7 +162,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
     /// Automatically falls back to the webclaw cloud API when bot protection or JS rendering is detected.
     #[tool]
     async fn scrape(&self, Parameters(params): Parameters<ScrapeParams>) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
         let format = params.format.as_deref().unwrap_or("markdown");
         let browser = parse_browser(params.browser.as_deref());
         let include = params.include_selectors.unwrap_or_default();
@@ -262,7 +252,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
     /// Crawl a website starting from a seed URL, following links breadth-first up to a configurable depth and page limit.
     #[tool]
     async fn crawl(&self, Parameters(params): Parameters<CrawlParams>) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
 
         if let Some(max) = params.max_pages
             && max > 500
@@ -311,7 +301,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
     /// Discover URLs from a website's sitemaps (robots.txt + sitemap.xml).
     #[tool]
     async fn map(&self, Parameters(params): Parameters<MapParams>) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
         let entries = webclaw_fetch::sitemap::discover(&self.fetch_client, &params.url)
             .await
             .map_err(|e| format!("Sitemap discovery failed: {e}"))?;
@@ -334,7 +324,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
             return Err("batch is limited to 100 URLs per request".into());
         }
         for u in &params.urls {
-            validate_url(u)?;
+            validate_url(u).await?;
         }
 
         let format = params.format.as_deref().unwrap_or("markdown");
@@ -376,7 +366,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
         &self,
         Parameters(params): Parameters<ExtractParams>,
     ) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
 
         if params.schema.is_none() && params.prompt.is_none() {
             return Err("Either 'schema' or 'prompt' is required for extraction.".into());
@@ -433,7 +423,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
         &self,
         Parameters(params): Parameters<SummarizeParams>,
     ) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
 
         // No local LLM — fall back to cloud API directly
         if self.llm_chain.is_none() {
@@ -475,7 +465,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
     /// Automatically falls back to the webclaw cloud API when bot protection is detected.
     #[tool]
     async fn diff(&self, Parameters(params): Parameters<DiffParams>) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
         let previous: webclaw_core::ExtractionResult =
             serde_json::from_str(&params.previous_snapshot)
                 .map_err(|e| format!("Failed to parse previous_snapshot JSON: {e}"))?;
@@ -543,7 +533,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
     /// Automatically falls back to the webclaw cloud API when bot protection is detected.
     #[tool]
     async fn brand(&self, Parameters(params): Parameters<BrandParams>) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
         let fetch_result =
             tokio::time::timeout(LOCAL_FETCH_TIMEOUT, self.fetch_client.fetch(&params.url))
                 .await
@@ -748,7 +738,7 @@ impl WebclawMcp {
         &self,
         Parameters(params): Parameters<VerticalParams>,
     ) -> Result<String, String> {
-        validate_url(&params.url)?;
+        validate_url(&params.url).await?;
         // Use the cached Firefox client, not the default Chrome one.
         // Reddit's `.json` endpoint rejects the wreq-Chrome TLS
         // fingerprint with a 403 even from residential IPs (they
@@ -810,7 +800,9 @@ fn slugify(query: &str) -> String {
         .collect::<Vec<_>>()
         .join("-")
         .to_lowercase();
-    if s.len() > 60 { s[..60].to_string() } else { s }
+    // char-safe truncation: byte slicing panics if char 60 lands
+    // mid-codepoint (multibyte queries, e.g. CJK / accented input).
+    s.chars().take(60).collect()
 }
 
 /// Check for a cached research result. Returns the compact response if found.
@@ -866,3 +858,32 @@ fn save_research(dir: &std::path::Path, slug: &str, data: &serde_json::Value) ->
         json_path.to_string_lossy().to_string(),
     )
 }
+
+#[cfg(test)]
+mod tests {
+    use super::slugify;
+
+    #[test]
+    fn slugify_multibyte_query_does_not_panic() {
+        // Byte-slicing s[..60] would panic mid-codepoint on multibyte
+        // alphanumerics; char-safe truncation must not.
+        let q = "日本語のクエリ".repeat(20); // long, 3-byte chars
+        let s = slugify(&q);
+        assert!(
+            s.chars().count() <= 60,
+            "slug too long: {}",
+            s.chars().count()
+        );
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn slugify_ascii_unchanged_under_limit() {
+        assert_eq!(slugify("Hello World Query"), "hello-world-query");
+    }
+
+    #[test]
+    fn slugify_caps_long_ascii_at_60_chars() {
+        let s = slugify(&"word ".repeat(40));
+        assert!(s.len() <= 60);
+    }
+}
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/error.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/error.rs
index c49a1c9..a63848f 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/error.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/error.rs
@@ -70,7 +70,21 @@ impl IntoResponse for ApiError {
 
 impl From<webclaw_fetch::FetchError> for ApiError {
     fn from(e: webclaw_fetch::FetchError) -> Self {
-        Self::Fetch(e.to_string())
+        match e {
+            webclaw_fetch::FetchError::InvalidUrl(msg) => {
+                Self::BadRequest(format!("invalid url: {msg}"))
+            }
+            other => {
+                let msg = other.to_string();
+                if msg.contains("invalid url:")
+                    || msg.contains("blocked private or internal address")
+                {
+                    Self::BadRequest(msg)
+                } else {
+                    Self::Fetch(msg)
+                }
+            }
+        }
     }
 }
 
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/main.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/main.rs
index f4cfdcb..06f2451 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/main.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/main.rs
@@ -75,6 +75,15 @@ async fn main() -> anyhow::Result<()> {
         .compact()
         .init();
 
+    if is_unspecified_addr(args.host)
+        && args.api_key.is_none()
+        && std::env::var_os("WEBCLAW_ALLOW_OPEN_PUBLIC").is_none()
+    {
+        anyhow::bail!(
+            "refusing to bind 0.0.0.0/[::] without WEBCLAW_API_KEY; set WEBCLAW_API_KEY or WEBCLAW_ALLOW_OPEN_PUBLIC=1 to override"
+        );
+    }
+
     let state = AppState::new(args.api_key.clone())?;
 
     let v1 = Router::new()
@@ -121,3 +130,10 @@ async fn main() -> anyhow::Result<()> {
     axum::serve(listener, app).await?;
     Ok(())
 }
+
+fn is_unspecified_addr(addr: IpAddr) -> bool {
+    match addr {
+        IpAddr::V4(ip) => ip.is_unspecified(),
+        IpAddr::V6(ip) => ip.is_unspecified(),
+    }
+}
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/batch.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/batch.rs
index 99533c9..18ac1f4 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/batch.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/batch.rs
@@ -37,6 +37,14 @@ pub async fn batch(
             req.urls.len()
         )));
     }
+    let mut safe_urls = Vec::with_capacity(req.urls.len());
+    for url in &req.urls {
+        safe_urls.push(
+            webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(url)
+                .await?
+                .to_string(),
+        );
+    }
 
     let concurrency = req.concurrency.unwrap_or(5).clamp(1, HARD_MAX_CONCURRENCY);
 
@@ -47,7 +55,7 @@ pub async fn batch(
         include_raw_html: false,
     };
 
-    let url_refs: Vec<&str> = req.urls.iter().map(|s| s.as_str()).collect();
+    let url_refs: Vec<&str> = safe_urls.iter().map(|s| s.as_str()).collect();
     let results = state
         .fetch()
         .fetch_and_extract_batch_with_options(&url_refs, concurrency, &options)
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/brand.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/brand.rs
index 908976a..f3f6a43 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/brand.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/brand.rs
@@ -21,8 +21,9 @@ pub async fn brand(
     if req.url.trim().is_empty() {
         return Err(ApiError::bad_request("`url` is required"));
     }
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
 
-    let fetched = state.fetch().fetch(&req.url).await?;
+    let fetched = state.fetch().fetch(url.as_str()).await?;
     let brand = extract_brand(&fetched.html, Some(&fetched.url));
 
     Ok(Json(json!({
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/crawl.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/crawl.rs
index 4d15195..9ea484c 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/crawl.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/crawl.rs
@@ -36,6 +36,7 @@ pub async fn crawl(
     if req.url.trim().is_empty() {
         return Err(ApiError::bad_request("`url` is required"));
     }
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
     let max_pages = req.max_pages.unwrap_or(50).min(HARD_MAX_PAGES);
     let max_depth = req.max_depth.unwrap_or(3);
     let concurrency = req.concurrency.unwrap_or(5).min(20);
@@ -56,8 +57,8 @@ pub async fn crawl(
         cancel_flag: None,
     };
 
-    let crawler = Crawler::new(&req.url, config).map_err(ApiError::from)?;
-    let result = crawler.crawl(&req.url, None).await;
+    let crawler = Crawler::new(url.as_str(), config).map_err(ApiError::from)?;
+    let result = crawler.crawl(url.as_str(), None).await;
 
     let pages: Vec<Value> = result
         .pages
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/diff.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/diff.rs
index e4e038d..b0706fb 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/diff.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/diff.rs
@@ -75,8 +75,9 @@ pub async fn diff_route(
     if req.url.trim().is_empty() {
         return Err(ApiError::bad_request("`url` is required"));
     }
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
 
-    let current = state.fetch().fetch_and_extract(&req.url).await?;
+    let current = state.fetch().fetch_and_extract(url.as_str()).await?;
     let previous = req.previous.into_extraction();
     let result = diff(&previous, &current);
 
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/extract.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/extract.rs
index 05b8909..55b34a0 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/extract.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/extract.rs
@@ -43,10 +43,11 @@ pub async fn extract(
             "either `schema` or `prompt` is required",
         ));
     }
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
 
     // Fetch + extract first so we feed the LLM clean markdown instead of
     // raw HTML. Cheaper tokens, better signal.
-    let extraction = state.fetch().fetch_and_extract(&req.url).await?;
+    let extraction = state.fetch().fetch_and_extract(url.as_str()).await?;
     let content = if extraction.content.markdown.trim().is_empty() {
         extraction.content.plain_text.clone()
     } else {
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/map.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/map.rs
index 846183a..6daec69 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/map.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/map.rs
@@ -27,8 +27,9 @@ pub async fn map(
     if req.url.trim().is_empty() {
         return Err(ApiError::bad_request("`url` is required"));
     }
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
 
-    let entries = sitemap::discover(state.fetch(), &req.url).await?;
+    let entries = sitemap::discover(state.fetch(), url.as_str()).await?;
 
     let body = if req.include_metadata {
         json!({
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/scrape.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/scrape.rs
index 1c5fc52..2f7e73f 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/scrape.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/scrape.rs
@@ -52,6 +52,7 @@ pub async fn scrape(
     if req.url.trim().is_empty() {
         return Err(ApiError::bad_request("`url` is required"));
     }
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
     let formats = req.formats.as_vec();
 
     let options = ExtractionOptions {
@@ -63,11 +64,11 @@ pub async fn scrape(
 
     let extraction = state
         .fetch()
-        .fetch_and_extract_with_options(&req.url, &options)
+        .fetch_and_extract_with_options(url.as_str(), &options)
         .await?;
 
     let mut body = json!({
-        "url": extraction.metadata.url.clone().unwrap_or_else(|| req.url.clone()),
+        "url": extraction.metadata.url.clone().unwrap_or_else(|| url.to_string()),
         "metadata": extraction.metadata,
     });
     let obj = body.as_object_mut().expect("json::object");
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/structured.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/structured.rs
index c9cdc1a..9c10b67 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/structured.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/structured.rs
@@ -25,7 +25,7 @@ impl From<ExtractorDispatchError> for ApiError {
         match e {
             ExtractorDispatchError::UnknownVertical(_) => ApiError::NotFound,
             ExtractorDispatchError::UrlMismatch { .. } => ApiError::bad_request(e.to_string()),
-            ExtractorDispatchError::Fetch(f) => ApiError::Fetch(f.to_string()),
+            ExtractorDispatchError::Fetch(f) => ApiError::from(f),
         }
     }
 }
@@ -46,7 +46,8 @@ pub async fn scrape_vertical(
     if req.url.trim().is_empty() {
         return Err(ApiError::bad_request("`url` is required"));
     }
-    let data = extractors::dispatch_by_name(state.fetch(), &vertical, &req.url).await?;
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
+    let data = extractors::dispatch_by_name(state.fetch(), &vertical, url.as_str()).await?;
     Ok(Json(json!({
         "vertical": vertical,
         "url": req.url,
diff --git a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/summarize.rs b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/summarize.rs
index b967f1f..6b645ab 100644
--- a/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/summarize.rs
+++ b/crates/webclaw-server/src/routes/summarize.rs
@@ -22,8 +22,9 @@ pub async fn summarize_route(
     if req.url.trim().is_empty() {
         return Err(ApiError::bad_request("`url` is required"));
     }
+    let url = webclaw_fetch::url_security::validate_public_http_url(&req.url).await?;
 
-    let extraction = state.fetch().fetch_and_extract(&req.url).await?;
+    let extraction = state.fetch().fetch_and_extract(url.as_str()).await?;
     let content = if extraction.content.markdown.trim().is_empty() {
         extraction.content.plain_text.clone()
     } else {
diff --git a/deploy/hetzner.sh b/deploy/hetzner.sh
index 9c5e92d..826c9b5 100755
--- a/deploy/hetzner.sh
+++ b/deploy/hetzner.sh
@@ -44,6 +44,19 @@ warn()    { printf "${YELLOW}[!]${RESET} %s\n" "$*"; }
 error()   { printf "${RED}[x]${RESET} %s\n" "$*" >&2; }
 fatal()   { error "$*"; exit 1; }
 
+# Mask a secret for display: keep the last 4 chars, redact the rest.
+# Empty input renders as "(not set)".
+mask_secret() {
+    local s="$1"
+    if [[ -z "$s" ]]; then
+        printf '(not set)'
+    elif (( ${#s} <= 4 )); then
+        printf '****'
+    else
+        printf '****%s' "${s: -4}"
+    fi
+}
+
 prompt() {
     local var_name="$1" prompt_text="$2" default="${3:-}"
     if [[ -n "$default" ]]; then
@@ -52,7 +65,7 @@ prompt() {
         printf "${CYAN}    %s${RESET}: " "$prompt_text"
     fi
     read -r input
-    eval "$var_name=\"${input:-$default}\""
+    printf -v "$var_name" '%s' "${input:-$default}"
 }
 
 prompt_secret() {
@@ -64,7 +77,7 @@ prompt_secret() {
     fi
     read -rs input
     echo
-    eval "$var_name=\"${input:-$default}\""
+    printf -v "$var_name" '%s' "${input:-$default}"
 }
 
 generate_key() {
@@ -374,7 +387,7 @@ create_server() {
     printf "    Domain:       ${BOLD}%s${RESET}\n" "${DOMAIN:-none}"
     printf "    OpenAI key:   ${BOLD}%s${RESET}\n" "$([ -n "$OPENAI_KEY" ] && echo 'set' || echo 'not set')"
     printf "    Anthropic key:${BOLD}%s${RESET}\n" "$([ -n "$ANTHROPIC_KEY" ] && echo 'set' || echo 'not set')"
-    printf "    Auth key:     ${BOLD}%s${RESET}\n" "$AUTH_KEY"
+    printf "    Auth key:     ${BOLD}%s${RESET}\n" "$(mask_secret "$AUTH_KEY")"
     printf "    Ollama model: ${BOLD}%s${RESET}\n" "$OLLAMA_MODEL"
     echo
 
@@ -454,7 +467,9 @@ create_server() {
     echo
     printf "  ${BOLD}Server IP:${RESET}    %s\n" "$server_ip"
     printf "  ${BOLD}SSH:${RESET}          ssh root@%s\n" "$server_ip"
-    printf "  ${BOLD}Auth key:${RESET}     %s\n" "$AUTH_KEY"
+    printf "  ${BOLD}Auth key:${RESET}     %s\n" "$(mask_secret "$AUTH_KEY")"
+    printf "  ${DIM}(full key stored in /opt/webclaw/.env on the server:\n"
+    printf "   ssh root@%s 'grep WEBCLAW_AUTH_KEY /opt/webclaw/.env')${RESET}\n" "$server_ip"
     echo
     printf "  ${BOLD}Monitor build progress:${RESET}\n"
     printf "    ssh root@%s 'cd /opt/webclaw && docker compose logs -f'\n" "$server_ip"
@@ -465,7 +480,7 @@ create_server() {
     printf "  ${BOLD}Scrape:${RESET}\n"
     printf "    curl -X POST http://%s:3000/v1/scrape \\\\\n" "$server_ip"
     printf "      -H 'Content-Type: application/json' \\\\\n"
-    printf "      -H 'Authorization: Bearer %s' \\\\\n" "$AUTH_KEY"
+    printf "      -H 'Authorization: Bearer <YOUR_AUTH_KEY>' \\\\\n"
     printf "      -d '{\"url\": \"https://example.com\"}'\n"
     echo
 
@@ -482,7 +497,8 @@ create_server() {
     echo
 
     printf "  ${BOLD}Tear down:${RESET}\n"
-    printf "    HETZNER_TOKEN=%s ./deploy/hetzner.sh --destroy\n" "$HETZNER_TOKEN"
+    printf "    HETZNER_TOKEN=\$HETZNER_TOKEN ./deploy/hetzner.sh --destroy\n"
+    printf "    ${DIM}(re-export the same token you used to deploy)${RESET}\n"
     echo
 }
 
diff --git a/examples/README.md b/examples/README.md
index 142f132..0967d74 100644
--- a/examples/README.md
+++ b/examples/README.md
@@ -2,6 +2,14 @@
 
 Practical examples showing what webclaw can do. Each example is a self-contained command you can run immediately.
 
+## Workflow Guides
+
+- [HTML to Markdown for RAG](./html-to-markdown-rag/) turns web pages into markdown or compact LLM text for retrieval pipelines.
+- [Firecrawl-Compatible API](./firecrawl-compatible-api/) shows the `/v2` compatibility routes for scrape, crawl, map, and search.
+- [MCP Web Scraping](./mcp-web-scraping/) connects webclaw to MCP clients such as Claude Code, Claude Desktop, Cursor, and Codex CLI.
+- [Proxy-Backed Crawling](./proxy-backed-crawling/) shows single-proxy and proxy-pool crawling from the CLI.
+- [Cloudflare Diagnostics](./cloudflare-diagnostics/) gives a reproducible checklist for blocked or empty protected-site results.
+
 ## Basic Extraction
 
 ```bash
diff --git a/examples/cloudflare-diagnostics/README.md b/examples/cloudflare-diagnostics/README.md
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..e8fd197
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/cloudflare-diagnostics/README.md
@@ -0,0 +1,58 @@
+# Cloudflare Diagnostics
+
+Use this checklist when a page works in the browser but fails from a scraper, returns a challenge page, or produces empty extracted content.
+
+## 1. Save the Raw Response
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://protected.example.com --raw-html > raw.html
+```
+
+Inspect `raw.html` for challenge copy, blocked request text, empty shells, or application HTML that needs JavaScript rendering.
+
+## 2. Compare Extracted Formats
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://protected.example.com --format markdown > page.md
+webclaw https://protected.example.com --format json > page.json
+webclaw https://protected.example.com --format llm > page.txt
+```
+
+If raw HTML has content but markdown is empty, tune extraction with selectors:
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://protected.example.com \
+  --include "main, article, [role=main]" \
+  --exclude "nav, footer, aside, .cookie-banner" \
+  --format markdown
+```
+
+## 3. Try Another Browser Fingerprint
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://protected.example.com --browser firefox --format markdown
+webclaw https://protected.example.com --browser random --format markdown
+```
+
+## 4. Use Cloud Fallback
+
+```bash
+export WEBCLAW_API_KEY=wc_your_key
+
+webclaw https://protected.example.com --cloud --format markdown
+```
+
+Cloud mode can use hosted routing, JS rendering, and protected-site handling that are not part of the fully local open-source path.
+
+## 5. Keep a Reproducible Report
+
+When reporting a problem, include:
+
+- target URL
+- command used
+- selected format
+- whether `--raw-html` returned a challenge or normal page HTML
+- whether `--browser firefox` changed the result
+- whether cloud mode changed the result
+
+Remove cookies, tokens, customer data, and private URLs before sharing logs.
diff --git a/examples/firecrawl-compatible-api/README.md b/examples/firecrawl-compatible-api/README.md
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..e6c3f4b
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/firecrawl-compatible-api/README.md
@@ -0,0 +1,60 @@
+# Firecrawl-Compatible API
+
+webclaw exposes Firecrawl-compatible v2 routes for teams migrating existing scrape, crawl, map, or search calls.
+
+## Scrape
+
+```bash
+curl https://api.webclaw.io/v2/scrape \
+  -H "Authorization: Bearer $WEBCLAW_API_KEY" \
+  -H "Content-Type: application/json" \
+  -d '{
+    "url": "https://example.com",
+    "formats": ["markdown"]
+  }'
+```
+
+## Crawl
+
+```bash
+curl https://api.webclaw.io/v2/crawl \
+  -H "Authorization: Bearer $WEBCLAW_API_KEY" \
+  -H "Content-Type: application/json" \
+  -d '{
+    "url": "https://docs.example.com",
+    "limit": 25,
+    "maxDepth": 2
+  }'
+```
+
+Poll the returned crawl id:
+
+```bash
+curl https://api.webclaw.io/v2/crawl/$CRAWL_ID \
+  -H "Authorization: Bearer $WEBCLAW_API_KEY"
+```
+
+## Map
+
+```bash
+curl https://api.webclaw.io/v2/map \
+  -H "Authorization: Bearer $WEBCLAW_API_KEY" \
+  -H "Content-Type: application/json" \
+  -d '{
+    "url": "https://docs.example.com"
+  }'
+```
+
+## Search
+
+```bash
+curl https://api.webclaw.io/v2/search \
+  -H "Authorization: Bearer $WEBCLAW_API_KEY" \
+  -H "Content-Type: application/json" \
+  -d '{
+    "query": "site:docs.rs tokio tutorial",
+    "limit": 5
+  }'
+```
+
+Compatibility routes are meant to reduce migration friction. For new projects, prefer the native `/v1` API because it exposes webclaw-specific options more directly.
diff --git a/examples/html-to-markdown-rag/README.md b/examples/html-to-markdown-rag/README.md
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..d4c29b3
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/html-to-markdown-rag/README.md
@@ -0,0 +1,50 @@
+# HTML to Markdown for RAG
+
+Turn web pages into clean markdown or compact LLM text before chunking, embedding, or passing the page to an agent.
+
+## CLI
+
+```bash
+# Clean markdown with headings, links, and readable structure.
+webclaw https://docs.anthropic.com --format markdown > page.md
+
+# Token-optimized output for direct LLM context.
+webclaw https://docs.anthropic.com --format llm > page.txt
+
+# Keep the main article content and remove common navigation/footer noise.
+webclaw https://docs.anthropic.com \
+  --only-main-content \
+  --format markdown \
+  > page.md
+```
+
+## Batch a URL List
+
+Create `urls.txt`:
+
+```text
+https://docs.anthropic.com/
+https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/claude-code
+https://docs.anthropic.com/en/api/messages
+```
+
+Run:
+
+```bash
+webclaw --urls-file urls.txt --format llm > corpus.txt
+```
+
+## Hosted API
+
+```bash
+curl https://api.webclaw.io/v1/scrape \
+  -H "Authorization: Bearer $WEBCLAW_API_KEY" \
+  -H "Content-Type: application/json" \
+  -d '{
+    "url": "https://docs.anthropic.com",
+    "formats": ["markdown", "llm"],
+    "only_main_content": true
+  }'
+```
+
+Use `markdown` when humans may inspect the output. Use `llm` when the next step is chunking, embedding, summarization, or prompt context.
diff --git a/examples/mcp-web-scraping/README.md b/examples/mcp-web-scraping/README.md
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..0663670
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/mcp-web-scraping/README.md
@@ -0,0 +1,44 @@
+# MCP Web Scraping
+
+Use webclaw as a local MCP server so Claude Code, Claude Desktop, Cursor, Windsurf, OpenCode, Codex CLI, or another MCP client can fetch clean web context.
+
+## Install
+
+```bash
+npx create-webclaw
+```
+
+The installer detects supported MCP clients and can write the config for you.
+
+## Manual Config
+
+```json
+{
+  "mcpServers": {
+    "webclaw": {
+      "command": "~/.webclaw/webclaw-mcp",
+      "env": {
+        "WEBCLAW_API_KEY": "wc_your_key"
+      }
+    }
+  }
+}
+```
+
+`WEBCLAW_API_KEY` is optional for local extraction. Add it when you want cloud fallback for protected sites, JS rendering, hosted search, or hosted research.
+
+## Example Prompts
+
+```text
+Scrape https://docs.rs/tokio and summarize the parts about task spawning.
+```
+
+```text
+Crawl https://docs.example.com up to depth 2 and return the pages most relevant to authentication.
+```
+
+```text
+Extract the pricing tiers from https://example.com/pricing as JSON with fields name, price, limits, and features.
+```
+
+The MCP server exposes tools for scrape, crawl, map, batch, extract, summarize, diff, brand, research, search, and vertical extractors.
diff --git a/examples/proxy-backed-crawling/README.md b/examples/proxy-backed-crawling/README.md
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..fd49be9
--- /dev/null
+++ b/examples/proxy-backed-crawling/README.md
@@ -0,0 +1,53 @@
+# Proxy-Backed Crawling
+
+Use proxy rotation when you need to distribute a crawl across a proxy pool. webclaw supports a single proxy or a proxy file.
+
+## Single Proxy
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://example.com \
+  --proxy http://user:pass@proxy.example.com:8080 \
+  --format markdown
+```
+
+SOCKS5 is supported too:
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://example.com \
+  --proxy socks5://proxy.example.com:1080 \
+  --format markdown
+```
+
+## Proxy Pool
+
+Create `proxies.txt` with one proxy per line:
+
+```text
+http://user:pass@proxy-1.example.com:8080
+http://user:pass@proxy-2.example.com:8080
+http://user:pass@proxy-3.example.com:8080
+```
+
+Run a crawl with controlled concurrency:
+
+```bash
+webclaw https://docs.example.com \
+  --crawl \
+  --depth 2 \
+  --max-pages 100 \
+  --concurrency 10 \
+  --delay 200 \
+  --proxy-file proxies.txt \
+  --format markdown
+```
+
+## Batch URLs
+
+```bash
+webclaw --urls-file urls.txt \
+  --proxy-file proxies.txt \
+  --concurrency 10 \
+  --format json
+```
+
+Proxy rotation helps with throughput and IP reputation. It does not replace request fingerprinting, JS rendering, or challenge handling for heavily protected sites. For those, use hosted cloud mode with `WEBCLAW_API_KEY`.
diff --git a/setup.sh b/setup.sh
index cd695a4..1b3c0fb 100755
--- a/setup.sh
+++ b/setup.sh
@@ -36,7 +36,7 @@ prompt() {
         printf "${CYAN}    %s${RESET}: " "$prompt_text"
     fi
     read -r input
-    eval "$var_name=\"${input:-$default}\""
+    printf -v "$var_name" '%s' "${input:-$default}"
 }
 
 prompt_secret() {
@@ -48,7 +48,7 @@ prompt_secret() {
     fi
     read -rs input
     echo
-    eval "$var_name=\"${input:-$default}\""
+    printf -v "$var_name" '%s' "${input:-$default}"
 }
 
 prompt_yn() {